Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:43:43 49558, You have got to be about the most superficial commentator on con-langues since the idiotic B. Gilson. Did I miss the one where you said which conlang you're fluent in and read at least three times a week and can read new books in every week of even one year or listen to radio shows in every week? New radio shows? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 11:55:13 49558, New radio shows? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:55:14 49558, Yeah, I'm surprised you don't know that there are radio shows put out in Esperanto every week. I thought you were supposed to be an expert. And, which of the conlangs are you fluent in? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 11:55:16 49558, I was born in 1998 so I don't know what a radio is sorry Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:55:18 49558, I suppose you think that's cute. What it makes you is a fraud. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 11:55:19 49558, yeah but I'm a cute fraud though right? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:55:21 49558, I assume that anyone who is reading this should assume since you have not mentioned which one you actually can speak that the answer is you don't speak any of them . Let me guess, you can speak English and maybe a little, tiny bit of a second language but you couldn't actually live in what you know of it. Typical. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 11:55:23 49558, sina sona ike! mi ken toki kepeken toki pona. taso, ona li toki lili. jan ale li ken kama sona toki kepeken ona kepeken tenpo lili! tenpo pini la mi toki ala e ona tan ni. ni li ale. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:55:24 49558, toki pono or whatever it is? Give me a break. Show me the bibliography. Show me the speaking language community, show me the technical literature written or translated into it, show me the literature from many countries translated into it. I wonder, since its inspiration is supposed to be Taoism if they've translated any of the literature of Taoism into it. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 11:55:26 49558, toki pona is a game that is a little above pig-Latin and way below Ido. About its only virtue is that it lacks the nationalistic hegemony of Basic English. I'd love to see someone try to translate a 4th grade level chapter book into it. Or try to. Why don't you wow us by translating The Little Engine That Could or .... no. An even better demonstration. How about you translate Gerda Malaperis into it. Mike S. Sun May 4 11:55:28 49558, Ouch. Flaming Obsidian Sun May 4 12:06:23 49558, I can translate the entirety of Moby Dick, if you want to challenge me. Also, Toki Pona has a whole community, unlike slowly dying Ido. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:25 49558, I'm not an idist, I'm an Esperantist, a language which has the largest "conglang" community in history. I bet you couldn't translate Moby Dick into toki pona and have anyone who hadn't read the original tell you what was going on in most of it. I'll bet your translation would be controversial. The language is radically vague except when talking about the simplest things. It wasn't designed to talk about complicated things, its inventor said as much. Mike S. Sun May 4 12:06:27 49558, This snippet is the entirety of the lackluster "Literature" section of Wikipedia's article on TP: "Lang has published proverbs, some poetry, and a basic phrase book in Toki Pona." Actually, there is a little bit more than that, but not much more. Perhaps the most significant work I can find is a translation of The Little Prince (https://failbluedot.com/toki_pona/jan_lawa_lili/). The translation however is not very faithful, but rather is heavily abridged. When you translate it back to English (to the extent that is even possible) and compare it to the original, it sounds like what you'd say if you were trying to explain the story to a 2- or 3-year-old child. All the little details melt away like snowflakes falling into a campfire. There is no alternative; TP lacks the necessary lexicon and syntax to faithfully convey the full story. It is essentially glorified baby talk, and I doubt the original author would have been very pleased with this translation. Despite all that, Flaming Obsidian, I do challenge you to translate the entirety of Moby Dick into TP. I suspect it would be a good learning experience. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:28 49558, I just looked at an article, I notice that it says the inventor of t.p. translated the Tao te Ching INTO ESPERANTO. I like how she purposely limited the number of words for numbers so it wouldn't be easy to talk about "big numbers" in the language. Numbers like 5 and sixteen, apparently. I've got nothing against people playing in the language but to pretend it's a real language with even an unsophisticated range of usefulness is simply not true. Seems to me if they're going to be true to the inventors intention they can't really make it so. Zamenhof invented Esperanto to do that and he built in means of extending a fairly small vocabulary into a far larger number of usable words. Claude Piron was able to write some fairly technical and sophisticated books as well as crime novels and even beginner books like Gerda Malaperis that, by the end of the book, feel quite normal. I really meant it when I said that though I studied French and German for years and use them practically every day, Esperanto is the only secondary language that I can use with practically the same fluency and feel of fluency that I do my native English. And I don't speak it all that often. compared to French. Flaming Obsidian Sun May 4 12:06:30 49558, Simplicity does not mean stupidity. All of your points rely on the claim that simple things are for idiots. I know it may be difficult to translate things into Toki Pona, but that does not mean it is a dumb language. You could easily translate many things into V0tgil, but that does not make it a good language. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:32 49558, A language of 120 words, designed by its inventor to not be able to express complex ideas or numbers bigger than - what was it in the official vocabulary, two? - cannot express complex thoughts in a clear manner. It would be like trying to translate a modern novel into an ancient language in which modern ideas and things had no vocabulary. Only without having the freedom to invent neologisms as they did in Finland when they tried to do their Latin news reports. They were popular but they had to invent a lot of words to pull it off. I will bet if you came up with a toki pona translation of Gerda Malaperis by Claude Piron most of the users of t.p. wouldn't understand what the story was about or what was happening during most of it. Go on, prove me wrong. There must be an English translation of it somewhere. Flaming Obsidian Sun May 4 12:06:33 49558, Challenge accepted. Flaming Obsidian Sun May 4 12:06:35 49558, Here's chapter 1 of Gerda Malaperis. It only took me a few minutes to write it. https://pastebin.com/NzMGm4C2 Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:37 49558, Let's see you translate the last chapter of it. The first chapter is the simplest one. How about the chapter where Linda is trying to figure out what she's going to do when the blond guy leaves. I'd like some other toki pona user who didn't know the story prove they understood it on a cold reading. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:38 49558, I retranslated your translation and it's hardly a clear translation of what the text says. Am I right, you describe the blond young man as being pale yellow? Really? Flaming Obsidian Sun May 4 12:06:40 49558, No, pi linja jelo translates as "having yellow hair." Linja is a more informal term for hair, the more formal term being linja lawa. jelo walo is pale yellow. This must be a form of pigeon chess, to translate a text for somebody who does not know the language I am translating into. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:42 49558, I looked at t.p. and learned to read it once, though there wasn't much of anything interesting to read in it. It didn't take long. I am not impressed with the translation and I do doubt that if someone was unfamiliar with the story if they would really understand what is supposed to be going on in it. It would be an interesting test to make. I wonder what the inventor of t.p. would have to say about it. As the story is in Esperanto, using pretty much exclusively a very small vocabulary, as I recall all of them standard, "official" roots and grammatical forms, it's obvious that E-o can do that. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:06:44 49558, "Haha you don't know any conlangs" "That one doesn't count" Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:46 49558, A conlang of 120 words, it has three numbers "one, two and many" because its author didn't want the language to have the ability to express "big numbers" and doesn't like the introduction of the word for "hand" to represent the huge number five. toki pona isn't so much a language as it is a game. It takes the absurdities that sprang from Basic English with its 850 words and magnifies them enormously. If you had read Gerda Malaperis, with its own radically reduced vocabulary, and read the "translation" of the first chapter into toki pona linked to above, you would see that it isn't a language in any way. Some people call it a "pidgen" but it's not even that. Anyone who thinks they can judge a real constructed language on the basis of toki pona is probably too ignorant to have an important idea on the topic. So, you speak toki pona? I have a feeling the place it got the best workout was at the Esperanto Youth group's workshop on it at the International Congress a while back. I don't know if they taped it but it would be interesting to see how those conlangers who know an actual conlang did with it. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:06:47 49558, lol Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:49 49558, So you don't speak toki pona. Why am I surprised? sethraptor Sun May 4 12:06:51 49558, I'm sorry but I'm just having trouble comprehending the sheer volume of haughty obstinance it must take to engage with a comment that only says "lol". Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:52 49558, You should have put your period between "comprehending" and "the" and left everything after the period out. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:06:54 49558, Is this your job, to do this? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:55 49558, You've finally said something amusing. The idea that someone gets paid to promote a conlang or criticize one is mildly amusing. As is the idea that refuting you is work. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:06:57 49558, I mean you've written some pretty lengthy comments on here, I was wondering if you had some reason for doing this or just really value your time so little that you consider it a priority to refute even the most asinine response to your youtube comment thread where you make fun of someone for not being a die-hard esperantist. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:06:59 49558, I think fast and type fast. I write several thousand words most day. This is child's play. I haven't made fun of anyone for not being a "die-hard Esperantist" I haven't made fun of anyone for not being an Esperantist. The only non-Esperantists I have anything against are those who say untrue things about the language as a language and a real phenomenon in the world. My criticism of toki pona was with the idea that it was a language instead of a game. Try writing the English language using 120 words even if you use all of their grammatical inflections within that. The results won't be communication on any but the vaguest of levels. I have no problem with people playing with toki pona if they want to but to claim you could translate Moby Dick or even Gerda Malaperis into it is absurd. By the way, I respect toki pona enough to not capitalize it. I might think Ms. Lang is kind of eccentric but I don't have anything against her or her project, such as it is instead of such as it isn't. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:07:00 49558, Well I'm glad to see you've found something productive to do with that big head of yours. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 12:07:02 49558, "I respect toki pona enough to not capitalize it" https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UGifIDjML._SX331_BO1,204,203, 200_.jpg Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:03 49558, The instructions I found online said that it never used upper case letters, did that change or was the thing I learned to "read" it from wrong? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:05 49558, Hey, if you're going to get snarky I'm going to return it with attitude. I can also kick it around if necessary. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:07:07 49558, Well, let's see it then. Go on and have a go at me. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:09 49558, Oh, I thought I was already being too edgy for you. Or was it just too long? sethraptor Sun May 4 12:07:11 49558, No, actually. Luis Manuel Ontiveros Sun May 4 12:07:13 49558, +Conlang Critic thank you for pinning this absurd thread. You gained one more subscriber ;) Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:07:14 49558, sethraptor thank you for giving me something entertaining to read (that is to say, i'm on your side here, i wish english had affect suffixes) sethraptor Sun May 4 12:07:44 49558, Yeah seriously that would be so useful on internet. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:46 49558, I'd have to see what it was, the active, using community it attracted, the ways it is USEFUL and the literature it produced. One person doesn't determine if one conlang is better than another, a community that adopts and uses it does. That is if it isn't something ridiculously impractical such as Loglan or Toki Pona The history of Esperanto "improvements" is a long one but the only ones that have been successful are minor points which have changed in the century + of its use by a community of users. The basic structure of the language has, already, passed the test of time in users whose native languages have been from many different families of languages around the world. Several of the best writers in Esperanto grew up speaking such non-Indo-European languages as Japanese and Hungarian. Mike S. Sun May 4 12:07:48 49558, Loglan is often presented as a "logical language", but actually it was a homebrew project putatively designed to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. That needs to be fully appreciated if you wish to understand why the language was designed the way it was. Starting in 1955, the creator seems to have been working mostly on his own, with minimal input from others, and never incorporated the various advances in transformational grammar, formal semantics, case role theory, etc that appeared in the 1970s and 1980s. Along the way, innumerable kludges, patches and just plain bizarre design decisions found their way into the language over the time of several decades. Suffice to say that Loglan and Lojban should not be presented as IALs. However, just as with Toki Pona,some enthusiasts did not get the memo that the language was NOT designed to be an IAL. I will say, however, that a properly reformed loglanoid language could probably be used as an auxlang. Such a language might be useful in clearing up ambiguities that might arise between people of different cultural backgrounds in conversation, arguably helping to avoid misunderstandings. Whether a properly reformed loglanoid would ever attract a significant following and a movement is, of course, an entirely different question. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:51 49558, Last time I looked one of the inventors of Loglan bragged that two people had actually sustained conversation in it for 45 minutes. I believe by that time in the history of Esperanto there had actually been international congresses conducted entirely in the language with participants from many different countries. Let me know when the world-wide community of those who could actually get along for an hour in the language reaches three figures. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:07:53 49558, I'm no expert, but it seems to me like if you judge every "conglang" against the virtues of Esperanto, then of course Esperanto is going to come out on top since it literally is Esperanto. Of course a minimalistic spiritually minded experimental language isn't going to be tremendously successful as an international auxiliary, especially compared to THE "definitive" auxlang that is gloriously prolific Esperanto. I would even venture to say that Esperanto's main virtues are it's widespread use and recognition which may or may not have to do with it's merits as an auxlang. Whether these goals themselves are worth pursuing is another matter entirely, and to be honest, mostly irrelevant. Mike S. Sun May 4 12:07:56 49558, Anthony McCarthy, perhaps you aren't aware of some the current usage in Lojban (Loglan's successor language). Currently there is a good amount of conversation occurring in Lojban, both in IRC and voice chat. There are translations and there is also some original musical output on Youtube and Vimeo if you're curious. I am not trying to compare Lojban to Esperanto. I'm just trying to make you aware of things. If you have read my last comment, you know that my view is that Lojban is need of radical reform, and that it's not suitable as an IAL candidate, at least not in its current state. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:07:59 49558, I have read about Lojban, it is essentially the same language with some differences to get past the copyright on it, as I recall. If it isn't as simple to learn as Esperanto has proven to be over decades, I doubt it has much of a chance to become practical or widely used. Simplicity of learning mixed with having enough established community, literature, etc. to make it worth learning is essential to it becoming more than a hobby. Mike S. Sun May 4 12:08:01 49558, Natural languages get pretty complicated and are still used, so I don't think the degree of simplicity of Esperanto is a necessity for learning. Simplicity is not the end-all that trumps all other considerations, but is one goal that has to be balanced with other goals, such as versatility and the possibility of expressing precise, nuanced thoughts. Esperanto and Lojban don't have the same goals, so again, at the risk of repeating myself, it's not really apt to compare Esperanto and Lojban directly. Lojban was designed for purposes that are separate from Esperanto's IAL idealism. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:08:02 49558, A second language isn't learned under the same conditions under which a mother tongue is, learned from birth as the first means of communication, during all of the waking hours a child experiences. A conlang would be learned in a way more like a second language learned in school would be. Language instructions in schools are notorious for their not producing speaking ability and, usually, more than slight reading skills. I'm skeptical about the linguistic theory that Loglan was formed to demonstrate, I've got no problem with people playing with it but it's not going to be widely used because it is too different from most or any other language. Mike S. Sun May 4 12:08:04 49558, Anthony, any second language, if it's going to be learned at all, is going to be learned only by the minority of people who are motivated to learn it. Esperanto is no exception. No matter how simple a language is (assuming it's fully functional and not a toy like Toki Pona), learning still requires significant practice and memorization. It takes commitment. In the case of Lojban, Lojban is learned by the sort of people who want to learn Lojban and absolutely no one else. I have been studying the language for a while, though I am not fluent. I share your skepticism of Sapir-Whorf, assuming you are referring to that, but I do think that Lojban is worthwhile for the purpose of bringing preconceptions to consciousness and encouraging clear and precise thinking. As a I said earlier, the language could stand a serious reformation -- I agree with you that it should be made simpler in order to learn and use. I agree it's more complex than it needs to be, but that's the way it is for now. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:08:06 49558, mostly he knows how to be evasive and a pedant. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:08:08 49558, I see anthony as the kind of guy who sees himself as some kind of big intellectual, but the only way he has to express his expert thesaurus reading skills is on youtube, where he picks fights by way of hyperbole. Mike is all about the facts, and argues with information. He doesn't worry so much about how the debate will turn out in the end because he's just in it for the pursuit of truth. I think what this comment thread really means is that argument for the sake of argument is futile, and by injecting the thread with personal emotional investment, Anthony has set himself up from the start to have accomplished nothing by the end of this treacherous journey. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:08:10 49558, Oh, for crying out loud. I've been reading and participating in conlang discussions for decades. I know what I'm talking about, if that's pedantic, I'm not ashamed of it. I do, actually, USE one and have looked at several of them in depth. Mordu min. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:08:13 49558, Anthony McCarthy decades? christ you must be boring Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:08:15 49558, As I say to my students, boredom is a sign of stupidity. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:08:17 49558, Anthony McCarthy a) you dont say that, you just wanted to flaunt the fact youre a teacher as though thatd equate to some intellectual authority b) so youre never bored? when youre grading your students' tests you sit at your desk fucking ecstatic, having the time of your life? if not then ur an idiot according to urself c) if i a) had students and b) told them that every single person named anthony is a 45 year old mine who was recently divorced with one rebellious teenager daughter who wears shorts and has white socks with one red and one blue stripe with a beer belly who sits at his desk looking down at his monitor with his glasses low down on his nose, it wouldnt make it true Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:08:19 49558, Well, you are just about entirely wrong in all your speculations. If you think conlangs are booorrrring and you come here to talk about them you can't be too bright. It's such a novel concept to so many of you guys, knowing what you're talking about. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:08:21 49558, I used to think someone who is decades old would be above fighting with <2 decade olds on youtube comments but I guess you can never know anything these days. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:08:23 49558, Oh, is that what you think. Or is that what you just said. I can assure you, I'm quite able to kick it around with you young'uns. Especially if you don't bother to know what you're talking about, which is what surprised me. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:19:47 49558, Well you see Anthony I actually can't know what I'm talking about, because it all depends on the country, region, and social context. Because of this fact, knowledge is unknowable to any single human. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:19:49 49558, Anthony McCarthy show me exactly where i said conlangs are borings, why the fuck would i be here if i didnt like conlangs? Luis Manuel Ontiveros Sun May 4 12:19:51 49558, Stop feeding the troll... (unless this is all becoming ironic, which is hard to tell :v) Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:19:52 49558, As the other guys don't seem to know anything about the topic, it's ironic that you'd call someone who does a troll. I guess it's always a rule of comment tread commenting, that ignorance rules because those are the people who troll comment threads. How's that for irony? sethraptor Sun May 4 12:19:54 49558, How is that for irony, Anthony? Care to elaborate? Luis Manuel Ontiveros Sun May 4 12:19:55 49558, You know, I think I'm actually sort of starting to like your idiotic comments again :) keep 'em coming! Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:19:57 49558, Because a "troll" was originally a person who didn't address the issues at hand. Now it apparently means someone who knows enough to be able to do that as opposed to people who don't and so can't. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:19:58 49558, Well I'm glad there's at least one person here with the knowledge to maintain some level of academic excellence for this comment thread at youtube dot com Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:00 49558, "SAD!""SAD!""SAD!" Did you learn English from reading Donald Trump tweets? Toki pona doesn't even have an official word for a number other than one, two and "many", it was designed to only be able to express the most minimal of information and, as the "translation" of even the first, most vocabulary limited chapter of Gerda Malaperis shows, it can't even really do that. It doesn't have user community, it has a gamer community. Lojban has a tiny number of people able to use it and it's so difficult and artificial that it is destined to never have more than a tiny user community. Neither are a viable conlang. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:01 49558, Well, you would seem to have other habits in common with Donald Trump, not being able to understand when what you want to be true has been refuted, for one. So, where is the rest of the Gerda Malaperis translation into Toki pona? You don't even have to go to the last chapter which uses the full c. 500 root vocabulary of the book, that one where Linda is trying to decide what to do if the blonde guy gets up and leaves will make the point that, no, very little can be translated into Toki pona and have another TP user understand it. I think it's something like the ninth section of the book, though I'd have to look. Obviously, you can say it in Esperanto since the book was written as a beginner's reader in that language, one which has been successfully used and understood by many thousands of Esperanto users and speakers. Conlang Dude Sun May 4 12:20:03 49558, Anthony McCarthy if you want I'll translate that section if you find it. I've never read Gerda Malaperis, but then why would I? The only reason it's at all noteworthy is because it was written in a conlang, not a particularly good one at that. Anyway, give me a link to a section and I'll translate it. You can find some Toki Pona user to read it and let's see how close they are. Until then, I'm off to speak non-Esperanto languages with any merit whatsoever. Oh wait, it's redundant to say both "non-Esperanto" and "with any merit" because the two are mutually inclusive. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:04 49558, The trick is translating it in a way so that a person who doesn't know the story, or the section translated, would understand what was going on in it. I was familiar with the story and I am familiar with Toki pona and I would never have been able to figure out what was happening in the story. Toki pona, with its radically tiny vocabulary cannot do what is done by Claude Piron in that book, give people an easy to learn language which will provide them with a vocabulary and grammar able to do what can be done in any natural language with the same level of precision and specificity. If you want an easier challenge you could try to translate the texts and exercises of the Zagreb Method textbook - available all over the place, free, online, with an even more reduced vocabulary. I will bet you won't get far into it before the resources of Toki pona are proven to be unable to produce the same equivalent use of language that Esperanto does and has since the end of the 19th century. I counted the vocabulary for the first lesson at about 40 words, or a third of the entire corpus of Toki pona, By the time you get to lesson 4, you already surpass the corpus of T.P. words for numbers and I'm sure in many other categories of vocabulary. I am sure you might give some vague sense of what is going on in the original, though not much that is very specific. And according to the inventor of the language, that was her intention. To only be able to talk about very simple things, not a full range of human experience. It does no one any good to pretend you could possibly do that with 120 words. Plus or minus "unofficial" neologisms which, as it is the nature of neo-logisms, will start muddying the water as fast as you invent them to clear things up. Anyone who has ever read novels in a second language will know that experience, especially when those words are ones you can't find in any but the most specialized dictionary of jargon. The history of Ido as opposed to Esperanto shows that once you start fiddling to "improve" a language, you'll more likely drive your reform into decadence. I can read Ido - it's really a dialect of Esperanto, more or less - but if I'm going to use a conlang I want one where people will understand what I'm saying instead of being confused by my "improvements" or "reforms" or neologisms. I do agree with the late Claude Piron on the desireability of clarity over novelty. I am certain you will never be able to translate his fine study La Bona Lingvo into TP. As I said, I have no problem with people wanting to play with Toki pona or Lojban or Ido but except for the ever fading project of Ido, there is no chance of them becoming a useful conlang for general communication. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:06 49558, The word, itself, isn't old, it came up on Usernet in 1991 and I would call your attention, such as it is, to the first line from Merriam Websters: Definition of conlang : an invented language intended for human communication that has planned and cohesive phonological, grammatical, and syntactical systems "Intended for human communication" contains more than can be expresed in any 120 +- word game. If 120 words, why not 12? Why not 2? Yes No. You could communicate something with just Yes and No but nothing clearly about something and no more information than affirmation or negation. It's almost certain that more times than not one or both parties won't know what is being talked about or what is being affirmed or negated. Your statement about the example of Gerda Malaperis is a transparently dishonest dodge. I proposed the test of Toki pona because it is a novella written very successfully, communicating quite clearly in a vocabulary of about 500 word roots, many of which are grammatical affixes. I would hazard the guess that any natural language which is used to communicate about life in the late 20th and early 21st century could come up with a translation of it which carries the full meaning of the story, probably most of it in fairly direct, literal translation due to the flexibility of sentence structure in Esperanto. I'm sure there could be a totally successful translation into many conlangs, but not Toki pona becaue it lacks sufficent vocabulary and clarity BY THE DESIGN OF THE WOMAN WHO INVENTED IT. I'm sure there is probably a possibility of doing a translation into Lojban, though perhaps not as the language was constructed, suppoedly to make lies impossible to tell in it and lies play an important part in the story. You don't know what you're talking about. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:08 49558, No, let's not leave it at that because any conlang that hopes or deserves to become an actual, used language exists to facilitate human communication, not to test a theory or a flaky idea that someone has. There is a very good word for "language" projects that aren't for general communication but are some kind of embodiment of a theory (Loglan-Lojban) or philosophical position (T.P.) or a make believe, non-human community (Elvish, for example). I very seldom talk about conlangs or language in general while using Esperanto, I talk about all kinds of other things unrelated to language and language problems. And I do it with people who can understand what I'm saying with the same level of precision that others can when I'm speaking my native language. I do, by the way, think it would be a very good test of the theory behind Loglan-Lojban to see if a story in which lies play an intrinsic part could be translated into it. If those lies could be expressed in the language, they're obviously not a test of the theory. If they can't, then could you lie to the Nazis about where their intended victims were hiding in it? I wonder if anyone has ever tested the theory in that way. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:09 49558, Listen guy, academic linguistics doesn't even all agree on what a language is for normal old natural languages, so it's awful big-headed of you to think that you can make the distinction between what is and isn't a "real" "conlang". This especially when your distinction is based on whether the "project" in question imitates natural language, Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:10 49558, I would bet you that you could get a hundred academic linguists in a room and ask them if a language that limits itself to 120 words, has no word for numbers other than the ones TP is limited to, other radical limitations in essential words denoting specific things, actions and conditions of being, etc. and not one of them would say it was a real language, some might note what I have, that such a thing is a game. Any language that deserves that designation will enable those who use it to conduct all of their day-to-day communication within a reasonable range of specificity. Any which don't aren't languages. Those dead languages which left no or minimal remnants vocabulary which are available to us today could not be considered a language that still exists, though they onced did. In the same way any constructed "language" which limits itself to a vocabulary of a similar number of words is, essentially, in the same category by design. So, guy, why don't you go ask a bunch of "academic linguists" about that instead of just assuming they'd agree with you. I'm not that impressed with academic linguistics, George Lakoff, for example, I'd like to hear their reasoning if they agreed with you. It might be fun. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:12 49558, Good. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:13 49558, You do realize that linguistics is what allows conlangs to exist and be discussed the way that they do and are Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:15 49558, You said " academic linguistics doesn't even all agree on what a language is" which is a different thing than the study of language in general. I doubt that until the 20th century that "academic linguistics" had much of anything to do with constructed languages and, as in the case of Glosa, Interglossa, Novial, especially Interlingua and a host of others, the association was hardly a great success. Why don't you read the late Don Harlow's history of conlang projects before you go on. Look up "Don Harlow How To Build A Language Esperanto Book". I think the reasons Esperanto worked were a. The fact that Zamenhof spoke several languages and read more, b. he had the failed example of Volapuk to learn from, c. he took a practical instead of a theoretical-academic approach to the problem. His overall goal was communication among people who didn't speak a common, natural language, not to illustrate some academic theory or other. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:17 49558, Anthony McCarthy i never realized pirahã isnt a real language Conlang Dude Sun May 4 12:20:18 49558, Anthony McCarthy Similarly, Toki Pona achieves its goal. It's goal was to creat communication with a radically small vocabulary. It does this, it does it effectively, and most importantly it does it functionally. By design it isn't meant to go into specifics but specifics in a sentence don't limit communication by very much. Take the sentence "I glanced at the words littering the page, before flicking my eyes over to him." It's a relatively detailed sentence. Now saying "I looked at the words on the paper, then I looked at him," doesn't communicate anything different. Now you could translate "mi lukin e nimi pi lipu. mi lukin e ona" as either because they both mean the same. Being able to differentiate between "disgusting paste (ko jaki)" and "mud" isn't necessary because 99 times out of 100 it makes sense contextually. Your argument is that TP has no detail but details come from context. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:20 49558, I'd like to see someone write a news report into the Trump-Russia scandal in T.P. Or the firing of James Comey. How would you say, "Donald Trump fired James Comey to try to stop the Russian election hacking investigation". You limit your vocabulary to 120 words, you'll find yourself severely limited in what you can talk about and what you can say about that. You want to play with that, I'm not against that. Pretending it can function as a full language is a fraud. I'm the one who pointed out, over and over again that Ms. Lang, in inventing T.P. said she didn't want it to be able to talk about complex topics. Which is incompatible with a full service language. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:22 49558, Anthony McCarthy "Akesi utala jan pali e James Kome tawa pali tawa pakala ike e Lusia pali kulupu tawa lon li e ike tawa oko li sona" Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:25 49558, The test would be to give that to someone telling them nothing about what it said and seeing if they could figure out what you were saying. Someone who didn't know anything about it. I will bet it wouldn't work because, frankly, I can't figure out what you're referring to and I proposed the sentence. Give a word for word translation back into English. Conlang Dude Sun May 4 12:20:27 49558, Anthony McCarthy "jan Tono Tunpu li pakala e pali pi jan Kemu Komi la ona li ken pakala e lukin pi pakala pi lawa pi jan ale pi ma Lusa pi jan Kemu Komi." Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:28 49558, I know that's a language which also doesn't have words for numbers beyond two, or is it three. Other than that, perhaps like you, I don't really know much about it. I do know that the people who use it would have to have more specific means of talking about complex things than Toki pona provides or they'd all have died out. I would like to know what they do when they interact or trade with other people with languages and more complex numbers systems. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:30 49558, Anthony McCarthy So? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:31 49558, So comparing a real language with Toki pona and claiming that TP can stand on an equal footing with it is absurd. In the context of the lives of the people who speak Priaha, it's clear they don't require numbers larger than two. Who in among the Toki pona community lives a life where they can get away with such innumeracy? If they tried to conduct business at the U.N. in Toki Pona I wonder what they'd be able to do. I'm fairly confident that they'd be able to do most of not all of it in Esperanto, or Ido, for that matter. Claude Piron was a UN interpreter, by the way. I really would like to see how many people who didn't know anything about the Trump-Putin scandal would know that's what your translation of that sentence was talking about because I don't think they would have any idea what you were getting at. I have read books and articles about things I didn't know anything about in Esperanto and I am just about certain I knew what they were talking about and what they said about it. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:33 49558, OK, so neither of you will do the exercise of giving a word for word retranslation back into English so people will know what you think means what the original says. I took yours and put it in an online Toki pona to English translator - so no one can say I twisted it and this is what yours says person Tono Tunpu is blunder such work belonging to people Kemu Komi it's said he is is able to blunder such see belonging to blunder belonging to head of people ale of land Lusa belonging to people Kemu Komi Here's what it gave back for Nathan Harding's reptile conflict person activity such James Kome to activity in order to blunder bad such Lusia work community to be in/at/on be there is such negative to eye is wisdom If you want to give your own word for word retranslations, I would like to see them. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:34 49558, Toki Pona isn't meant to be used to conduct business at the U.N. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:36 49558, Anthony McCarthy you cant do word for word translations because a) what is and is not a word isnt a concrete thing b) toki pona doesnt have words for "to fire", "to hack", "to elect", "to stop" or "russia" sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:37 49558, Of course a machine translation isn't going to work for Toki Pona, jesus lord almighty. All you've been doing this whole time is constructing a point of view specifically designed to shit on Toki Pona and glorify precious Esperanto, and repeating it over and over again without giving any justification or reason why any of us should give a rat's ass what you think a "real" conlang is. To be entirely honest Anthony, if you don't think it's interesting to make an experimental conlang that explores what language is and what it's capable of, I don't know what the fuck you're doing in the conlang community. Either explain to us why this wild distinction you're making is somehow neither meaningless or arbitrary, or shut up about how good you're stupid new radio shows are and how this other language intentionally designed not to encompass complicated ideas is bad for not being able to express complex ideas over and over forever. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:39 49558, So, you do it, retranslate what you translated into Toki pona, word for word so people who haven't spent the several days it takes to be able to master its 120 words and grammar will know what you think contains the meaning of the original so they can judge if it's clear what it's talking about. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:40 49558, You could translate the words you claim carry the same meaning of the original sentence, that it would prove my point that Toki pona cannot function as a real language but only - as a means of saying extremely simple things- as its inventor intended. It can't translate Moby Dick as was claimed, it can't even translate that one sentence and produce a clear meaning as to what is being said. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:42 49558, Why, Donnie, I didn't think you spent your time on Youtube conlang comment threads. I have a feeling that Comey, when he's asked, under oath will deny what Trump claims about him telling him that - especially the version in the iterview with Lester Holt because Comey isn't stupid enough to have broken the law by setting up a quid pro quo (how do you translate that into Toki pona, I wonder). Donald Trump has criminal reasons to have tried to stop the investigation into his campaign and regime committing treason with the Putin crime family, I can only imagine how many family members and associates he's going to pardon as he flees on a chopper with a guarantee by Pence (assuming he hasn't already been forced out) that he'll pardon him like Ford pardoned Nixon. Why does it surprise me that the rest of it sounds like Trump, too? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:44 49558, So you don't do English particularly well, do you. I listened to the hearing where Clapper and Yates testified, that's not what they said. Apparently the reason you don't notice that Toki pona isn't a real language able to deal specifically with anything but the simplest level of vague communication because you don't think at a very high level, either. How many of the guys I've been arguing with are your sock puppets? Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:45 49558, Anthony McCarthy they dont do english at all they speak it Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:47 49558, Akira Enderle also do you have a reddit account?? id love to see your conlang Conlang Dude Sun May 4 12:20:48 49558, Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:50 49558, What did I say that was not true? No one who didn't know what was going on in the news would have understood either of those sentences in Toko pona. "mi povas diri unu aferon al vi" really, which online translator did YOU use. Eble ili kredas ke vi pravas, "kredas" cxar ili ne pensas. Ili scias nenion pri la problemoj de interkomunikado. Por ili, estas ret-ludilo. Friggin' TP has got me all messed up. Bah! sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:51 49558, Just so no-one gets me mistaken, I am not a trump supporter. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:53 49558, I wonder how many of those are your sockpuppets. And as I told someone above, mordu min. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:20:54 49558, I suspect that one of your commentators might be the anti-Esperanto troll Bruce Gilson who used to infest conlang discussions, he was a right wing Republican, as I recall. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:20:56 49558, rawr XD bites u >w< Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:58 49558, Anthony McCarthy do you honestly think seth gets his friends to gang up on someone on youtube?? also ive never ever seen, heard or otherwise communicated with someone who i knew was white as quickly as you Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:20:59 49558, sethraptor we must be annoying the fuck out of mitch sethraptor Sun May 4 12:21:01 49558, Sorry Mitch Luis Manuel Ontiveros Sun May 4 12:21:02 49558, Lol. I'm still getting my daily update of this mess :v Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:21:04 49558, I have no idea why several people who obviously know nothing about conlangs are doing this, I'm just answering them. As a comment down thread says, I'm getting updates on this and most of them seem to be attacking what I said. I don't have any problem answering them because most of the stuff is either silly on its face or stuff that was said in conlang discussions before the word was invented and before most of you were born. That one or more of them are suckers for Donald Trump even as he proves himself to be a liar, a traitor and a pathological falling despot doesn't surprise me. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:21:05 49558, Anthony McCarthy yes youre right akira (and almost definitely seth, mike s, etc.) and i have made conlangs but we dont know what they are according to you, and im not a narcissist im a fucking dumbass who hates themself but seth, akira and i havent said a word that's untrue or false (unless it was sarcastic but youre a big boy, you can figure that out yourself) Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:06 49558, A conlang made by someone who has a habit of attributing statements to people who haven't made them, I wonder what that would be like. Where is it published, I want to see it. It's no great achievement to having constructed a language project, as Don Harlow pointed out in that chapter I recommended to you, Mario Pei said he used to get several sent to him every month. The only one that has ever been more than a scheme or a project, both generating an actual user community which uses it for actual communication on a sufficient level, over more than a century, now, is Esperanto. It has had the proven stability - with modest, minor changes in common usage but with the structure intact - and the practicality to endure. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:07 49558, Anthony McCarthy im sorry are you genuinely trying to say that one's personality and traits come across in their conlang(s)? i'm sorry, are you really that stupid? also, sorry, you're right, nothing seth, akira, etc. and i has ever made is a real conlang, because they're not as good as esperanto Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:09 49558, Getting insults from someone like you don't bother me. If you'd given me reasons to respect your thinking it might. If you want to create a language which no one but yourself will ever use, go ahead. I don't care. But the idea of a conlang is to communicate among people who aren't contained in your own head. Eventually most normal people want to talk with other people about something other than conlangs so they'll want an actual language they can learn easily, use naturally with which to talk to other people. It isn't a geeky form of gaming niche, it's a means of communication with normal people about other things. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:10 49558, Anthony McCarthy you havent given any of us a reason to respect your thinking, because it's fucking stupid. and no, the idea of a conlang is not to communicate with others, it is an art form and of course you're gonna come up with some bullshit that only makes sense to you to refute that. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:12 49558, Anthony McCarthy also, what the fuck, who said conlanging was a "gaming niche"? what the fuck are you on about? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:13 49558, Apparently that's what it is for you. A language that can't communicate, that exists in the inventor's head, you don't need the word "conlang" for that, there's already a term for a language only one person can understand, it's called a "dead language" or, when no one else ever has or ever will understand it an aborted language. I wonder how many of your fellow gamester-conglangers will bother to learn each others languages. How many can say "May I order a cup of coffee" in yours? Can you say that? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:15 49558, Now you're just being a silly billy. I'm old enough that I remember when conlang discussions weren't the equivalent of the Society For Putting Things On Top of Other Things. It was about people communicating. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:16 49558, Anthony McCarthy each other's* Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:18 49558, Anthony McCarthy "silly billy"?? jesus christ man Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:20 49558, So you don't want to reveal to the world how you would order a cup of coffee in your invented language? How many of you geeks have learned each others languages? I'm guessing that you NEVER learn to use them, I doubt most of you ever learn them, yourselves. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:21 49558, I was trying to use language you might understand. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:23 49558, Anthony McCarthy you cant order cups of coffee because there arent any words for cup or coffee (yet) and it doesnt fucking matter if we learn eachother's or whoever uses them, a (con)language's worth is not defined on the amount of people who learn it and are you seriously calling us "geeks"?? do you live in the 1950s?? and also, we're geeks but you've been having conlang discussions for decades?? grow the fuck up man youre an adult Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:24 49558, Is there a word for "douchebag"? So, you're telling me, pretty much, that your imaginary language is essentially as real as an imaginary friend. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:32:26 49558, My favorite kong lang is the DK rap Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:27 49558, Anthony McCarthy where the fuck did the imaginary friend come from what the fuck are you on about you crazy old fuck Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:32:29 49558, sethraptor it's a conglangue* stupid young'uns Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:32:30 49558, If you can't order coffee in it, I've got no use for it. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:05 49558, Anthony McCarthy good for you Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:07 49558, "Crazy old fuck" as opposed to someone who makes up languages that no one will ever speak or use and which apparently aren't supposed to be communicated with. If you can't deal with an absolutely obvious simile like that one, I'd really love to see what your invented languages are supposed to be like. Do I get points for avoiding saying "callow young dick" for this long? Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:09 49558, Anthony McCarthy i do want people to see them which is why i post about them on reddit also no you dont get any fucking points this isnt a game jesus christ you are painful to communicate with Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:10 49558, Akira Enderle i dont know if i pronounced it right but damn that* sounds good (* = assuming i pronounced it right) Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:12 49558, Akira Enderle ive been doing spanish in school for two years and you can tell that very easily by the fact that i didnt realize that wasnt spanish (although to be fair most auxlangs borrow heavily from spanish), also i thought the spanish for and was y not e?? anyway thats a great looking script Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:13 49558, Akira Enderle oh and also i was confused by the fact you said you spoke two languages, neither of which were espagnol (dont have n tilde on this keyboard) Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:15 49558, Akira Enderle all i really know how to say is "soy una manzana" and "yo hablar abogado" so im p much set Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:25 49558, Go ahead. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:27 49558, Anthony McCarthy what a scathing retort Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:29 49558, Akira Enderle thats pretty damn impressive man congrats Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:31 49558, I let him have that one. It wasn't worth topping. Raymond Chandler, Playback sethraptor Sun May 4 12:33:32 49558, You could have just said the quote without citing it and saved me ten seconds of googling Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:34 49558, I don't quote without attribution. Though I might paraphrase. Why did you google it? Fact checking? sethraptor Sun May 4 12:33:35 49558, I don't know who raymond chandler is, lol Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:37 49558, If that's meant to be ironic, it's not. If it's true, I used to remember when people who liked to pretend they were smart made a minimum of effort at appearing informed. And here I thought my generation was a come down from the one before it. sethraptor Sun May 4 12:33:39 49558, I don't think that not recognizing the name of a novelist from the 30s makes me uninformed. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:40 49558, He wrote up into the 1950s and as he's one of the most popular novelists America has had. Yeah, it does make you uninformed. You ever hear of Faulkner? Steinbeck? What do they teach in schools these days? Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:43 49558, Anthony McCarthy youre a teacher and you dont know what they teach in schools?? youre the uninformed one Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:45 49558, I have teach private lessons, I haven't taught in a classroom in more than a decade. So, you know who Faulkner and Steinbeck were? sethraptor Sun May 4 12:33:47 49558, I'm not that into literature outside of some sci-fi, and no they don't make you read hardboiled detective fiction in school. There's lots of things in the world to give your attention to, I don't think you can really rag on a guy for not knowing every important author, nowadays especially. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:49 49558, i dont have teach private lessons old white people most likely Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:51 49558, darn young'uns and your scientitism sethraptor Sun May 4 12:33:52 49558, If I knew I was going to be playing Jeopardy today, I would have studied. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:54 49558, My typical student is in their teens to early 20s. I'd rather be old and informed than young and ignorant, which you prefer. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:33:56 49558, Anthony McCarthy how the fuck do you know Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:58 49558, I've read your comments. Are you so stupid that you didn't see how I would answer that? If you're not Bruce Gilson you're his reincarnation. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:33:59 49558, At least tell me you know who Faulkner and Steinbeck are. I won't open a vein if you don't but it will shock me. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:34:01 49558, Anthony McCarthy i know i just wanted to annoy you, also i already said i dont know Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:34:02 49558, I can hardly wait for you to publish your con lang. I forget, was yours the one which uses G. B. Shaw's alphabet? If so, a. it will never be adopted, b. you do know that Shaw wrote stuff, don't you. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:34:04 49558, Anthony McCarthy you seem to have extreme difficult in typing the word "conlang", you've called them "conglangs", "conlangues" and now "con langs", theyre only 8 letters like come on youre a grown man Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:34:05 49558, Akira Enderle well obviously its not in esperanto and itll never work because its not esperanto and everything needs to be like esperanto because its the only real conlang Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:34:07 49558, Do you "like" your own comments? Esperanto is the only conlang which has a large, international user community, an actual, readable literature, a history of continual use, actual usefulness, etc. It is used expertly by many people whose mother tongues are from a large number of family groups - not merely Indo-European. It is easily learned and in the experience of those who take the small effort to master it, quite natural in the experience of using it. By any measure, it is the most successful conlang in the history of such efforts. It has withstood attacks for its entire history and has maintained the integrity of its structure, those who use it today can read its literature back into the 19th century with just about complete comprehension. Whereas other languages such as Ido produce factions and schisms and one "reform" after another, always in the process of reformers coming up with reforms all on their own, Esperanto is stable going on a century and a quarter of actual use with minimal changes which don't impinge on its stability. Let me know when even one person can actually say something in your language project, never mind the one other fluent user of it, the bare minimum for a language to actually exist as a language, before one of them stops using it or dies to join the other thousands of still-born constructed languages. I'm more interested in using a language than in fantasizing about the language. I don't have lifetimes to wait for those fantasies to produce something useful and I don't need to because that already exists. You are childish. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:34:08 49558, The Shaw alphabet is used by no one except, apparently, those who want to get hold of money from the Shaw estate. I was vaguely aware of it and that Androcles and the Lion had been issued in the alphabet. Reading a little - about as much time as I hope to spend on it in my life - I see that Androcles attempts to reproduce British received pronounciation which I sure as hell won't adopt, so the pretense that it is phonetic is out the window right there. I also see that someone has used it to publish some Poe. As Poe grew up in several different places in early early to mid 19th century United States and certainly didn't speak with a Brit Received pronunciation, I wonder if the imposition of it on his words isn't a complete distortion of them. I'd have to hear someone reading his poetry and prose in the Brit received to judge how ridiculous it was. You do know that Poe was a writer, don't you? I also see that, as with Ido, the supposed advocates of it disagree about what sounds to assign to the various letters. Let me know when there is universal agreement about that. In about a thousand years when it will all be more than moot. People wined about the handful of accents in written Esperanto and thought that was a breaking point - though the use of "x" has arisen as a perfectly viable alternative to that even above Zamenhof's suggestion of using an "h" in that role. I use it all the time while typing, using a tiny little program to make those into accented letters at the touch of a key. Looking at the Shavian alphabet I count about five letters that would be recognizable to anyone who uses a Latin alphabet, so it turns that complaint about Esperanto on its head proposing an even less recognizable means of written communication. And considering such things as "ligatures" involved, it is a thing of dotty eccentricity. Have you even read Androcles and the Lion in standard English spelling? It's not a great play, it's seldom performed. I can't think of a practice that would more quickly relegate a proposed language to a still birth. I'd suggest you rethink that one. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:45:33 49558, Anthony McCarthy i wouldnt suggest they rethink, your word is not law, stop acting as though you have some kind of intellectual authority because you know a bunch of writers Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:45:36 49558, Well, I'm glad you realize that someone reading about the Shavian alphabet for about twenty minutes online and noting the actual non-use of it and its ridiculously impractical and rather stupid features wouldn't make someone an "intellectual authority" on it. Though, far less, would not knowing that make someone an authority. I think you boys are a good example of what happens when people stop reading adult books. Stupidity ensues. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:45:38 49558, Anthony McCarthy stupidity ensues though you cannot spell conlang right and youve repeated ignored the use of question marks. do not call people stupid if you dont know anything of their intellect. im conversational in finnish, afrikaans and french and im well versed in the fields of astronomy, particle physics (to a lesser degree), neuroscience (lesser degree) and linguistics. i know im not some super god of all mighty intelligence, im probably not even smarter than you but i am not stupid Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:45:40 49558, Now you're getting whiny. If you hadn't noticed, Youtube comment's aren't exactly your higher level of university press. I'd rather include a few typos and misspellings (I'll bet you're unfamiliar with Shaw as a critic of standard English spelling) than to spout total nonsense and ignorance. I can assure you, kid, that I'm a teacher going on many decades, having gone through undergrad and grad school before the age of spell check. You know, back when you were expected to have read something by writers like Steinbeck and Faulkner and others. Even people who went on to major in what they call STEM subjects, these days. Maybe you spent too much time on Aqua Teen and video games. Anyone who thinks anyone uses the Shavian alphabet except to get money from his estate is silly. I would bet the fewer than a handful of books and the several issues of one magazine published in it have been read by more than about twenty to fifty people in the entire history of the effort. Including the authors and publishers, is silly. Probably only including them. It is a farce that Shaw couldn't do justice to. Mel Brooks came close in a movie script dealing with fraud for profit. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:45:43 49558, Oh, you do know that William Shakespeare of Stratford couldn't spell his own name, don't you. Go look at his signatures, not to mention the spelling in the First Folio. Whoever wrote those plays and poems sure as hell wouldn't have known how to spell "conlang". I doubt your alleged resume is any more real than your constructed "language". The idea that it's like an imaginary friend gains credibility with every one of your comments. You might be able to bluff your fellow "conlang" ranger boys with that but don't try to pull it on me, kid. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:45:45 49558, Anthony McCarthy no, also they also wouldnt have been able to spell "phenomenology" because it wasnt a word at the time, as was not "conlang". also also, the inability of shakespeare to spell his own name is not at all relevant to your most-of-the-time misspelling of "conlang" also also also, are you honestly comparing yourself to shakespeare because you cant spell a word?? you are a ridiculous man do you think im making this all up?? for my own entertainment, or perhaps to stoke my massive ego and assert my dominance as the intellectual he-oh wait, that's what you're doing. you think your knowledge of a bunch of irrelevant writers overrides my intelligence because i dont share the same views as you. i think toki pona is a valid conlang and that esperanto isnt that good and somehow that nullifies all the actually important things i know, because you dont agree. everyone who doesn't think the exact same as you is completely wrong because they arent you. are you really that solipsistic, that craven, self obsessed, that obsessed with self-assurance and validation that you base your views on others with how their's coincide with yours?? you're a grown man and whether or not youre good in arguments youre obviously a smart man with a class so grow up and act like the big boy you are Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:45:48 49558, Well, he couldn't spell his own name. That was there. I remember the champion speller in my class had a knack of visual memory but he was of rather low intelligence. I think he ended up working for the owner of a chain of laundromats. Don't know what he's doing now. You'd have thought Emily Dickinson was an idiot too. You heard of her? You're just sulking now. It's not much fun to tease someone who just sulks. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:45:51 49558, Anthony McCarthy youre just rambling about irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with anything Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:45:54 49558, Well, I have been talking about your project this morning, so that's accurate, in one sense. You are nuts. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:45:57 49558, Anthony McCarthy no i am human Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:00 49558, Akira Enderle minä pidän tämää kaverea Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:03 49558, My argument is that if people had problems with 6 accented letters in Esperanto they weren't about to adopt an alphabet that had only five letters they'd recognize at all. Let me know when your imaginary friend and you can talk together in your imaginary language for 20 minutes at a time. No, cancel that, I don't really care. I suspect I knew most of those moons decades before you were born, bunky. I was a bit of a science geek when I was a kid. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:06 49558, Anthony McCarthy only one of your last five replies have mentioned those six (not including this one of course), boy you will not let this imaginary friend thing go will you?? i didnt realize your massive knowledge of english literature gave you extensive insights the complex neurological functions, patterns and idiosyncrasies of our brains. why ask if you dont wanna see it?? what was the point in that?? "bunky"?? really?? Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:10 49558, im sorry mitch rlly Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:13 49558, Akira Enderle is your reddit account akso akiraenderle?? im looking forward to seeing it, what's it called? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:16 49558, If you young dolts hadn't answered my first comment it's the last one I'd have posted. It's not my fault you've kept proving your ignorance and silliness. Do you "like" your own comments or do you like" each other's? You should look up the song "Mutual Admiration Society". It could be your theme song. Maybe you could translate it into Toki pona. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:19 49558, I think you should look up the history of all of those things you apparently figure were invented since you were born. I probably studied Spanish and German before you were born, too. Not to mention C++ though the last time I was associated with a college Pascal was the groovy language, I looked it up C++ was first published in 1985. Had you been born yet? I doubt you know more than the word phenomenology I probably read Husserl before your parents were born. Look him up, bunky, he died in 1938. I'm assuming you know who he was, though that's assuming more than is safe with you. I have found it funny to have you youngsters figuring that such stuff was after my time. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:24 49558, Good luck with that "gather a large community around it" part of your scheme. I wouldn't suggest holding your breath waiting for it to happen. I thought you boys were whining that this thread was getting too long and here you keep it going. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:28 49558, Anthony McCarthy "i doubt you know more about the word phenomenology i read husserl before your parents were born"??? what??? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:33 49558, Do I friggin' have to spell it out for you E-D-M-U-N-D H-U-S-S-E-R-L. If you don't know who he was you don't know crap about phenomenology. Let me guess, you read the word someplace and figured it sounded impressive. Geesh, what a bunch of phonies you guys are. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:46:38 49558, Will prove me wrong in what sense and on what topic? If it's on constructing the universally accepted and used uber-perfect universal language, Zamenhof was a genius who came closest to doing that as proven by the history of the effort. Many of them thar professional linguists touted here tried to outdo him, some of them quite famous in their day. and their attempts are either totally dead or have been kept alive as brain dead corpses, just barely. Now, why don't you whine about how long this has been going on as you and your tag team buddy keep it going even longer. I'd just as soon not waste the time, though when you say something really stupid it's too tempting to answer it. What in the world ever happened to the idea of a liberal education? Well, I guess I should ask what ever happened to the idea of AN education. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:42 49558, Anthony McCarthy phenomenology is the study of the structures of consciousness from the first person and no i used it bc i like how it sounds Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:46:46 49558, Anthony McCarthy also dont talk to us about spelling mr conglangue Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:47:18 49558, If you don't know Edmund Husserl you don't know, literally, the first thing about phenomenology. You are a B. S. artist. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:47:22 49558, Anthony McCarthy i dont know who he is but i do know the first thing about phenomenology which is that it's the first person study of structures of consciousness. there's no point knowing who made something before you know what the thing itself is Daniel Alorbi Sun May 4 12:47:27 49558, Nathan Harding Nathan Harding What's the argument about? Sounds like one guy likes Esperanto a lot dislikes Toki Pona a lot and everyone else is trying to show him that he should consider Toki Pona a conlang. It looks like it's devolved into questioning each other's authenticity too. I'm going to give a stab at providing some facts Everyone in this discussion at least knows more about conlangs and linguistics than the average person Toki Pona was designed to be a simplistic conlang, the creator believes it to be one. Esperanto has a big community, (possibly the biggest of existing conlangs) Anthony measures conlangs against their potential to be used in everyday situations and expressiveness compared to natural languages In conclusion Anthony will not accept that Toki Pona is a good conlang or even "truly" a conlang. Other members will not accept that only Toki Pona is not a conlang. Sound about right? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:47:31 49558, Not exactly, Toki pona with its c. 120 word vocabulary cannot function as a language in real life. It's the conlang equivalent of a sheltered workshop. If you want to see some discussion of people who knew what they were talking about, look up the old conlang treads back when people like Don Harlow were around to talk about them. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:47:35 49558, If you don't know the literature of phenomenology you don't know anything about it except what you'll find in a dictionary or encyclopedia (and those would probably mention Husserl). And in the case of phenomenology, you can't get around the writings of Edmund Husserl which are the origin and heart of matter. It would be like claiming to know about physics without knowing the math. Grumble Bee Sun May 4 12:47:40 49558, Anthony McCarthy Oh my god this is hilarious but at the same time sad. But mostly sad. Sometimes I hate being an Esperantist. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:47:45 49558, What's hilarious about it? Cxu vi vere estas samideiano? Mi ne kredas ke vi vere estas. anthony_havenn Sun May 4 12:47:49 49558, a Rynabunny Sun May 4 12:47:54 49558, I think you all have valid points. Anthony thinks of conlangs as tools for communication. To them, a bad conlang is one that fails at that (by being too simplistic, in the case of Toki Pona). The others think of a conlang as having its own purposes. Someone said conlang creation is an artform. Some people, myself included, create conlangs for fun and/or for personal use. They don't have to be perfect, or good for communication, or even useable (e.g. kay(f)bop(m)!). For a personal conlang, they just have to make its creator satisfied and it will have achieved its purpose. Different conlangs set out to achieve different goals. Esperanto arguably achieves a lot of its goals (relatively simple to learn, useful tool for communication) and yes, it is a good conlang in my opinion. But that doesn't automatically make Toki Pona a bad one. The latter also achieves its primary goals (extreme simplicity and ease of learning), perhaps even overachieving. So I guess Anthony has a fairly narrow view of what a conlang should be, and that's fine! But it should be understood that not all conlangs had/have/will have exactly the same goals, and I think comparing two vastly different languages is a futile exercise. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:47:57 49558, That's almost right, I distinguish between a language which is for communication and the creation of a pseudo-language structure which is not for communication but which is a personal amusement. I said that I have no problem with people doing that if they want to or even playing with it, such as was the case of the Esperanto Youth Group of Toki Pona users who held a workshop-gathering session on it at a convention. I would like to hear how those people who can use a real con-lang for communications used it, wondering if they were able to give it an, as it were, maximal test of its limits. I don't have any problem with someone making up a pseudo-language using the Shavian alphabet but to compare a language like Esperanto or Ido to it is comparing apples to imaginary apples. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:48:00 49558, The inventor of a language isn't the one who decides if it goes from being a mere project into becoming a real language, a community of users of the language does that. Let me know how that works for you. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:48:04 49558, Un, maybe you should learn how to read English before you start counting your speakers before they hatch. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:48:10 49558, OK, so you don't know much about politics, either. Did Bernie Sanders say exactly what you put in quotes? Where's your citation? I never said either of those things or the rest of it. The government "seizing the means of production" doesn't mean that something is socialism. As far as I'm concerned that's not socialism because it is only when the WORKERS own the means of production that it's socialism as far as I'm concerned. You are a silly. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:48:13 49558, Maybe you don't know how quotation works. When you say someone said something and put that something in quotation marks it indicates that you're claiming that they said what you put in quotation marks. In the thing you cite to back up your quotation, Sanders said, "These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?" He talked about income equality, not socialism. Geesh, where did you go to school? As for the definition of socialism, you should have read a bit down the page because your own citation mentions that the meaning of socialism has meant different things and has changed over time. I believe it was Lenin who decided it meant that the government owned the means of production, something I've never agreed with, especially a non-democratic government. I'm not interested in any kind of socialism which means anything but that the workers who produce the wealth of an entity own the means of production, not someone who lends them money and who got paid off with interest several generations ago. I'm against anything but egalitarian democracy that includes economic justice. You are a boob. Alex Hayes Sun May 4 12:49:25 49558, (200 comments) (First posted a month ago) (Most recent posted hours ago) Guys. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:49:26 49558, Hey, you make it 201. I'm just answering people. If no one had responded to my first comment I'd probably have forgotten making it by now. Ryan Sun May 4 12:49:40 49558, Nice English m8. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 12:49:41 49558, I have a question : are all esperantists douchebags and treat other languages with different purposes like trash ? just asking... Alex Hayes Sun May 4 12:49:43 49558, Is2DealYou Яаgиа DING DING DING DING DING Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 12:49:45 49558, btw did you know that Conlang Critic made a video about this comment ? Nathan Harding Sun May 4 12:49:47 49558, Is2DealYou Яаgиа well its not esperanto so much it must be ridiculously terrible unless its mimicing esperanto Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:49:51 49558, Since you obviously mean me, what language did I do anything other than describe? Since we're talking about inventions, invented languages being inventions, if they don't work as a means of communication they're essentially games, in the case of most of those discuseed here, the equivalent of solitaire since no one else in the world but the inventor is ever going to even bother to learn of their existence or learn them. The one whose author claims they're going to use the Shavian alphabet doesn't even seem to have done the actual inventing, it's more of a fantasy than a game. I don't care what silly people do among themselves but any real language is there for the purpose of communication between people. If it's only meant for the inventor to use, that's not a language. In most cases it's not even a personal code because talking about what they're intending to do is as far as it goes. The historical fact is that the only conlang to have ever gained a substaintial body of users who use it is Esperanto. It has stood the test of time and use since the end of the 19th century. If you learn the language as it's used today, you will have little, if any, trouble reading what's written in it for the entire history of the langage. Ido has never had that level of stability and nothing like the flexibility. Though it is certainly simple to learn - if they'd stopped fiddling with it they might have gotten somewhere. A lot was made in early conlang online discussion of Novial by one Bruce Gilson who managed to gather a few people together to make what I'm sure they believed would be just one last "reform" of that disused conlang before it took the lead. From what I gather, that effort petered out c. 1998 or so. This discussion is about on that same level. I've seen this B.S. for going on two decades now. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:49:53 49558, No, for some reason I have no interest in listening to it. Nicholas Layton Sun May 4 12:49:55 49558, Well let's be honest, toki pona is useless as a language. You can try to play with it in small talk but no one is going to understand what each other is trying to convey in any kind of meaningful conversation. And let's be even more honest, any efforts put into creating a new IAL is an exercise in futility. It's mental masturbation at best and will never be anything useful to anyone, including yourself. You Safar Sun May 4 12:49:57 49558, #notallesperantists People like Anthony are the main reason people kabei though (in my opinon). Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 12:50:01 49558, Oh, bite me. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 12:50:04 49558, This is probably the largest comment argument in youtube i had seen. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 13:05:07 49558, Anthony McCarthy the definition you see in a dictionary or encyclopaedia is the first thing about that thing, that's kinda the point Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:09 49558, If people hadn't said what they did to my first comment I wouldn't have posted a second one here. I've seen longer but, yeah, this has gone on a long time. But there is a precedent in the actual history of conlangs, I'd start that with the first agitation of the Ido promoters. I think the subsequent history of "better" conlangs and how, one after another, they went nowhere is an indication of what the future of them will be like. Meanwhile, Esperanto is the only one which has had any notable success. It is the only one with any proven history of actual use. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:10 49558, Oh, so the definition of a word that they put first is the only real, right way to use a word and the rest of those uses, often by some very fine authors and thinkers, is, by that arbitrary fiat, wrong. Well, there are some people who don't agree with that arbitrary rule which was never a rule I was taught. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:11 49558, You are assuming that all conlangs measure of success is how widespread their use is. In fact it seems like a lot of the methods you use to dismiss other peoples points are based on using your personal reasons for believing esperanto has been successful as a metric against all others which are brought up. edit: Anthony, I know you said you were mad initially because of mistakes he made when talking about Esperanto in this video. What were they? Just curious. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:12 49558, Actually, what I thought was that he didn't know what he was talking about generally. I said from the beginning that if anyone wants to play with Ido or Logban or some one of the other thousands of proposed language projects, I have no problem with them doing it. I don't have any problem with people making up some kind of personal code system as a language. But I do have a huge problem with them a. misrepresenting the history and content and proven usability of the one and only invented language to have gained a widespread user community. b. misrepresenting the success of other projects which failed to even gain a fixed form that people could learn without any guarantee that what they learned wouldn't be deemed "wrong" within a month of them learning it. I don't have any interest in expanding my criticism of the author of the video except to say what I have. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:13 49558, I don't think I'm going to change my mind that you are a very silly person who doesn't know what he's talking about and who doesn't know much of anything about Esperanto as it is used by the largest number of users of an invented language in the history of the effort to create one. That is if you don't count Bahasa Indonesia (a semi-invented language) which was imposed by government fiat and conquest. I have never heard an Esperantist mention the "fina venko" except to tell jokes about the idea. Forcibly converting anyone to using Esperanto is entirely contrary to the intentions of Zamenhof and any sensible Esperantist I've ever read. It was always intended as a second language for communication between people who didn't share a common language, it was never intended to supplant peoples' first languages, like English and others have. Nathan Harding Sun May 4 13:05:14 49558, Anthony McCarthy They share different opinions to you regarding Esperanto, so, of course, they're wrong and "very silly" Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:15 49558, People are entitled to their own opinions they aren't entitled to their own "facts". The history is what it is, it isn't what they want it to be, the body of present day Esperanto users is what it is, and you can compare that with what their fantasy "languages" they seem to prefer talking about instead of inventing are not what they are not. You might want to work on your English reading skills because you have a common disability of making things people say mean what you want them to mean instead of what they say. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:17 49558, I know you said you don't want to expand but I'm going to ask anyways. Which facts? Do you mean in this video? Or are you talking about the esperanto video? Mi pardonpetas pri la demandado, but I don't understand why you chose this video, or even this platform, for whatever point it is you are trying to make. Are you just upset that he was dismissive instead of asking for corrections? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:18 49558, Things went way past a critique of the video a long, long time ago. When I started this I intended to make one comment and if no one had answered it, it is the only comment I would have made. When I get notifications that people are responding to what I said, I don't see why I don't get to respond to them and when they start being snarky why I can't snark back. One thing I don't think I've been whiny or, as they say in Newfoundland, a sook. Not all who have commented here can say the same, honestly. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:19 49558, You can't deny you've been a little snarky, but I agree with you, people have been a little combative. It's silly for you to blame people responding to you, however. What made you think people would be okay with you taking a pot shot at the creator of the video, and that they wouldn't call you out on it? I'm almost getting the impression that you never had a real critique and felt offended he doesn't like Esperanto...everyone deserves benefit of a doubt, so I asked. Ne plu mi demandos se vi ne temos pri la kialo. Simpla scivolo :p Just wanted to see if asking nicely ended up any different to be totally honest. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:20 49558, Oh, for heavens sake, I'm not the one who's been whining about the length of this discussion thread that's the people who have been saying things I can respond to. You are all Bruce Gilsons, phonies who won't ever come up with anything as you resent the person who did. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:21 49558, Well, you got that they were at school and they were talking and there is a blond guy in the story and a few other things but, as I suspected, it didn't even carry the information in the first and easiest chapter in the book. I'd really love to read someone try to express what Linda was thinking about what she'd do if the blond guy got up and walked out. And that's not even nearly the most complex part of the story, coming in, if I recall correctly, about the first third of the book. I doubt it could deal with the even earlier chapter when Tom is trying to talk the Nurse into coming to take care of Gerda who has collapsed in the hall. Toki Pona is not a real functional language, it wasn't designed to be one. No language that is restricted to 120 words could be a functional language. No matter how well those words were chosen. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:23 49558, I don't know, the translation looks pretty good to me, although I've read Gerda and you're right, this isn't the most complicated chapter, although none of them really are complicated, and the story is straightforward enough I'm sure anything that was confusing could be guessed. It wouldn't be very elegant (some nested ni/pi statements, surely), but the story could be translated if someone felt the desire to do it. (to anyone considering it, please direct your expertise towards marvirinstrato instead! Meduset is begging to be in toki pona, and mine isn't good enough to write yet) Anthony, have you seen the monty python translation? It's very good: https://web.archive.org/web/20041116173522/http://www.geocities.com/tokipona/tex t/mphg.html Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 13:05:24 49558, I think I get Anthony's point of view: Any language out there that isn't designed for communication does not deserve to be called a language. (Or it fails to be one). You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:25 49558, 1) There are more dimensions to a language than its ability to be specific and; 2) There is also communication with yourself internally. Since you already know what you're talking about, it doesn't matter if you're able to be specific. This being valid depends on whether or not you believe that the language(s) you know change the way you think. I do, obviously. I understand the point of view, It's just limited IMO. A language is, or at the very least can be, more than just a tool for interpersonal communication. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:26 49558, A personal code is not the business of anyone else and I doubt it's interesting to anyone else. I don't have any problem with people doing whatever they want to as long as they're honest about the nature of it and don't claim that it compares to real languages which are designed to communicate with other people. By making public claims of that sort, they've taken it outside of the internal, personal realm and anyone can comment on it if they choose to. I said I didn't have any problem with anyone playing with Toki Pona or any other "language" as long as they were making absurd claims for it. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:28 49558, The original sentence I challenged someone to translate was, "Donald Trump fired James Comey to try to stop the Russian election hacking investigation". You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:29 49558, "jan Donald Trump li kama e ni: jan James Comey li jo ala e pali tan ni: ona li wile pake e ni: ona li lukin e ante losi pi wile ma" Not my translation, but it's pretty close. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:30 49558, Also can we please not have an off-topic debate about russians or trump or comey start in this thread. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:31 49558, "place desire" = country will / desire of the land / election. Donald Trump caused this: James Comey doesn't have a job because: he wanted to stop this: he was looking into the Russian change of the will of the land My best guess. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:32 49558, Donald Trump SAID HE FIRED JAMES COMEY TO STOP THE RUSSIAN INVESTIGATION. The rest of it was window dressing and a smoke screen. You have obviously bought the neo-fascist, FOX narrative that pretends that Trump didn't say that, himself but it is an obvious and transparent lie, obvious and transparent in a way that Toki Pona cannot express but which English can, as can Esperanto. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:34 49558, It is not off-topic because I was giving an example of something important that Toki Pona could not express. I wasn't aware that there was some ban on subject matter on this comment thread, there was plenty of extraneous junk brought in by those opposing me, Phenomenology, for crying out loud, and by someone who obviously didn't know more than the word without knowing what it meant. Try translating that into Toki Pona. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:35 49558, What are you talking about, we just gave you two different ways to translate that sentence. If you want to say Trump said you just add jan Trump toki e ni:. If you want to say he dreamt it you could add that. If you wanted to say he wasn't sure if he dreamt it or not but it probably happened you could say that too. How far back did you want to move the goalposts this time? Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:36 49558, I meant a "translation" of what I said in the comment. The "translations" a. don't contain the content of the original sentence, b. convey the meaning of the sentence, c. let anyone who doesn't know what is in the original sentence know what it says. Those "translations" are not translations anymore than a circle drawn on a piece of paper is a portrait of a real person. How many languages do you speak? I mean real ones, not "Toki Pona". Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:37 49558, You are a Republican idiot and a traitor to democracy. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 13:05:39 49558, You people are in politics now? Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:05:40 49558, +Akira Enderle "Libertarian" Well, there's your problem. Now can we please get back to watching Anthony spend over three irrecoverable months of his life actively writing about how a language can't be simple lest it lose it's status as a language? Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying this thread in the same way I like to go laugh at /r9k/ sometimes, but fucking really? This is still happening? Either way, we're here for the linguistics, get out of here with this shit Akira. (Also, Akira, was the near-impeachment of Nixon treachery towards democracy? He was, after all, democratically elected. Don't actually answer that, you're proving nothing, and this is derailed enough.) I would also kindly suggest that any future commentators also take this discretion. (Also, direct question to Anthony: the information is being retained, you just have to jump through some grammatical hoops. Is that not okay? Is Japanese not a real language because the grammatically correct sentence "Watashi wa ringo ga suki desu" translates to English literally as "As for myself, apple(s) are liked (by me)" instead of "I like apples"? Is Lojban not a language for it's reliance on abstract predicate logic to fuel its grammar (Can't give an example, I only know basic theory, not actual words/syntax)? Spanish translates "I am 20 years old" to "Tengo 20 años" back to "(I) have 20 years", is that unacceptable? Is it simply the number of concessions that Toki Pona must make that invalidates it? Even with all these questions, there's even more when you aren't speaking with an Anglophonic bias. Would a hypothetical native speaker of toki pona even notice the simplicity of the language? Would a native culture develop different language standards, kind like how Japanese poetry is more rhythm based than rhyming? Take all this with a grain of salt of course, since I do not speak toki pona, but I would still like clarification rather than "The language is too simple to speak complex thought with. Oh, you want an example? Nah, it's pretty self-evident, please translate something for me. When we back translated it, it sounds clunky and doesn't contain every detail I wanted but did not specify, so you've just proved my point, lol.") Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 13:05:41 49558, Why is this discussed here instead of Conlang Critic's Esperanto Video? You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:43 49558, Why are politics discussed in a conlang video? I'm convinced Anthony offered up that sentence just to ignore the translation that was offered and pretend like he had a good reason to yell at strawmen about Trump. People, don't be like Anthony, learn toki pona instead of Esperanto! (or learn both or neither, I don't care). If the we vs. Anthony argument can even still be considered a real, valid debate, I think it's become clear we're never going to win. mi wile e ni: jan ali ni li kama sona e toki pona. Ĝis y'all Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:05:44 49558, Akira Enderle Oh my god, this has to be bait. At least you're on topic… You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:45 49558, ni li kama jo ike: jan lawa kama jo e mani pi jan anpa ni li kama jo ike: jan lawa li jo e mani pi jan anpa (second kama is probably not needed) This is an immoral way to acquire: leaders (coming to) have the money from subjects Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:46 49558, You have resorted to outright lying that is contradicted by the very claims of Donald Trump and the sworn testimony of people who have enormous credibility. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:47 49558, Toki pona isn't just "simple" it is inadequate for communication. I didn't claim that Lojban wasn't a language, I said it was an invented language which was invented to demonstrate a linguistic theory from the 1930s which just about no credible linguist believes is true, b. which has failed to gain a speaking community EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO ARE ENTHUSIASTS OF IT and which will clearly never become a viable means of communication between people who don't share a non-planned language. You obviously share something with the people who have kept this going by spouting nonsense, you can't understand anything in any but the most ridiculously pat, black or white terms. Obviously the problem of coming up with a useful lingua franca used in addition to your native tongue is more complex than most of those here can deal with. As I said, I saw this kind of stuff on conlang comment treads back in the 1990s. You can still read those online. Anti-Esperantists tend to not know much of what they're talking about, though some pro-Idoists do, actually, know what they're talking about. I disagree with some of what they believe but at least they have some foot in reality. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:49 49558, tokipona.net works great, in addition to sonjas book. There aren't really an overwhelming number of resources so its acceptable, I think, to just try whatever you come across and see if you like it. Also, make sure to practice talking with other people, there are a few great chats on IRC/Discord/Facebook/Telegram, and probably others Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:05:50 49558, You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:51 49558, That's not a bad point, and you bring up a decent valid criticism of toki pona, which is the choice of certain shared definitions (and even the inclusion of certain words). I personally learned toki pona mostly through Esperanto, so the inter-language point is intriguing to me. Although I think just memorizing phrases in another language would probably do as much good as learning the grammar and definitions involved with toki pona, it's still funny that both would probably work about as well. More drama: My personal biggest problem with toki pona is that if someone does not understand something you say in toki pona, it can be almost impossible to explain it to them without resorting to another language, as most of the time it is difficult to find an entirely different way of phrasing something that means the same thing. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 13:05:52 49558, 261st reply !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:54 49558, If no one had answered me with misinformation I'd have left it at the 1st comment. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:55 49558, "My personal biggest problem with toki pona is that if someone does not understand something you say in toki pona, it can be almost impossible to explain it to them without resorting to another language, as most of the time it is difficult to find an entirely different way of phrasing something that means the same thing." A language which needs another language to explain what is meant in it is no language at all. It reminds me of the description of the Volapuk meeting which had to be conducted in German because Volapuk was so cumbersome and that one of the early Ido propagandists had to correspond with LL Zamenof in French because he didn't know Esperanto. As well as the letter by another condemning Esperanto as compared to Ido which was written in Esperanto. This discussion has convinced me of one thing, anyone who believes you can conduct your life in a language of 120 words either has a very simple-minded life or they are simple minded. You Safar Sun May 4 13:05:56 49558, You must be a very sad person to try to bait people you repeatedly insist you are superior than. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:57 49558, That replying to me? You boys can stop any time and I can assure you I won't post another comment here. It's not as if any of it was at all difficult. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:05:58 49558, Oh, and, by the way, how come you guys use more than 120 words of English? I challenge you to carry on a conversation about this in Toki Pona among yourselves and see if you understand each other. Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:06:00 49558, +Akira Enderle It turns out that I actually do like the taste of bait. Anywho, you're ideals are flawed. Why can't there be conflicting material on a news outlet? A truly neutral news outlet would have opinions from both sides, and quite a few of those examples from the album do. I mean really, do you expect every writer to agree on paid family leave? And again, news changes. Articles will conflict simply from being dated. Should you cover up the fact that you wrote an article with now proven false information, or leave it up, add a footnote, and write a new article? The first choice is shadier, and you seem to want it for some fucking reason. And seriously? He's done nothing? Okay, seemingly you'll mindlessly follow any right-wing denial-based narrative, so if you'd be so kind, jump through some hoops to convince me that his son didn't ask for incriminating evidence against Hillary from Russia. Edit: When the hell did I say I wanted a safe space? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 13:06:01 49558, wow this thread is still going, huh? shame that it somehow became about politics somewhere in there but I guess that's what happens when a youtube comment thread lasts over three hecking months. my favorite part of this (okay, ONE of my favorite parts of this. I can't just choose one part to like it's all so good) is that Anthony keeps saying that if nobody responded to his first comment this thread wouldn't've happened. it's really funny because the first comment he made was saying that I don't speak any con-langues that fit a really specific set of requirements that literally only apply to Esperanto and my response was literally just repeating the last thing he said and then after that I made a joke about being born after radios stopped being relevant and somehow THAT provoked Anthony into writing these heckin essays about how toki pono or whatever it is isn't a real language because it doesn't have very many words (that's the point of the language, you dingus!) my other favorite part is when he wrote a multiparagraph response to when sethraptor said "lol". that was really good Nathan Harding Sun May 4 13:06:02 49558, Conlang Critic cong-langues* stupid kids Nathan Harding Sun May 4 13:06:03 49558, Conlang Critic in seriousness, yeah sethraptor has been amazing in this argument lmao Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:06:04 49558, "the first comment he made was saying that I don't speak any con-langues that fit a really specific set of requirements that literally only apply to Esperanto" You should learn the difference between a question and a declarative sentence, at the very least you should actually re-read what I said in that comment which wasn't want you say. "and my response was literally just repeating the last thing he said and then after that I made a joke about being born after radios stopped being relevant" I wonder when you believe "radios stopped being relevant". I'm sure they'll find that interesting at the BBC, Deutsche Welle, All India Radio, Radio China, Voice of America, etc. As they still sell them and large parts of the world, especially in the developing world, depend heavily on radio you don't seem to know much about that either. Certainly a language which is broadcast regularly on the radio is more relevant than one which never has been and never will be. I wonder how you would define "relevance". How do you say "relevant" in Toki Pona? Are you complaining that people are commenting on your Youtube channel? That's weird, most people would like that happening. But if you are complaining about it, I'll make this my last comment here. The boys can carry on in the silliness they assert. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 13:06:05 49558, don't get me wrong, I love everything about this thread. it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen and I'm glad to have inspired it. that bit there where you pretended not to know that it's possible to say something in the form of the question? fantastic! I love reading stuff like that Conlang Critic Sun May 4 13:06:07 49558, also, "relevant" is "suli". if you wanna get more specific, you could say something like "suli lon tenpo ni". Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:18:07 49558, +Ramanuj Sarkar Might as well derail it now, it's already become a political thread. Granted, it's being restored, but go ahead and work your magic. This would usually be the point where I go silent and become a spectator again or just leave, but honestly, this thread is actually more hilarious as a participant. Keep laying out that bait, guys. dominic maddock Sun May 4 13:18:09 49558, Anthony McCarthy you absolute idiot! who said made-up languages have to have speakers, grammar or complexity? the whole point of making a language is that you can flip the tables, do things a natural language cannot do! a personal language is a personal language, and if it pleases yourself then you have successfully created a conlang. your problem lies in your fixed mindset, you forget that we are able to do whatever the fuck we want. saying 'your conlang will never be spoken by anyone' shouldn't be an insult, it should be a compliment, that your ideas are unique and complex to you. sure, toki pona is simple, and sure, esperanto is more popular, but we should look past all the hate and see that all of these conlangs were successful in their goal, maybe to please the creator, creator's friends, or speakers around the world. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:11 49558, You illiterate gobshite, I have said anyone should do anything they wanted to all through this discussion. TRY READING, IF YOU CAN. Gee, conlang guy, why aren't you whining about this continuing ? You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:13 49558, Right, people should do whatever they want, in between declaring what is and isn't a language and making sweeping statements about people who speak certain languages. :roll eyes: Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:14 49558, I suspect all your projects will have a similar history to Gilson's Novial project that began and died c. 1998. And he had a ready made language to work with. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:16 49558, Why the quantitative measure of success though? Why can't something just be what it is and do what it does? Why are you figuring languages on a pass/fail anyways? I think you could benefit from learning toki pona, and I sincerely mean that :) Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:18:18 49558, I think I'm having an existential crisis guys... Is Anthony more or less pretentious than Nathaniel Hawthorne? I actually can't tell anymore... Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:20 49558, I'm not the one who is pretending that Toki Pona is a real language. At this point this is only interesting in so far as it reveals how silly you boys are. Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:18:22 49558, And I'm not the one creating laughably vague standards just to fail a conlang I don't like, demeaning an entire community just because they don't agree with me, and using the word "boy" as an insult. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:24 49558, Wow, requiring of a language that it at least work to communicate to other people in fairly specific ways about at least everyday life, what a novel concept. You wonder why it didn't occur to anyone here before now. . If you want me to treat you like adults, act like adults, kids. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:26 49558, I guess the natural response is it's not up to you to decide what a person wants or doesn't want their language, or to be fair, their art work, to be. There is no reason a language has to be designed to facilitate communication with other people. There's no reason it even has to make it possible to communicate with other people. Even though you refuse to understand this, a lot of people do, and it's a good thing, too! Otherwise we'd all be speaking Esperanto instead of languages that actually challenge the way you think. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:39 49558, I don't think he really has any problem with toki pona, he's just reeeealllllyyyyyy upset (lol) that someone insulted Esperanto. #fuckgreenpopes Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:18:42 49558, "Communicate to other people in fairly specific ways about at least everyday life" I love that you want a stupid fucking made up language to have specificity when you yourself refuse to use it in your own. How many times have I asked for specific examples by now? And how many times have you responded with "it's not specific enough"? The irony is so deliciously brilliant I can taste it without opening my mouth. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:43 49558, I asked for someone to translate the first and easiest chapter of Gerda Malaperis into Toki Pona and the person came up with an inevitably vague garble that doesn't carry the information in the first chapter (nevermind the following chapters that grow increasingly complex and nuanced) only to have TPists claim that it was an accurate translation. I would challenge anyone to come up with a translation of it using 120 or 170 or 300 English language words that would convey the full meaning of the story, knowing that it couldn't be done, no matter how carefully you chose the English words to do it in. You couldn't come up with 120 Esperanto words that would do that, even with its agglutinative features of word creation. You kids are what I said in my first comment here. You are superficial, some of the stupidest and least honest people I've ever encountered in a discussion of conlangs. You won't even try to make sense and, as you figure languages aren't for the purpose of accurate communication, you figure you don't need to. This is playtime, nothing important. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:45 49558, lol it's inevitably vague garble to you because despite this convo going on for 4 months you still haven't learned toki pona also you just got dangerously close to admitting toki pona can do something esperanto can't, keep going Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:47 49558, You can leave it at any time you choose to. I'm always so interested in people who complain at the lengths of arguments online as they continue to lengthen them. Or doesn't that occur to you? If you think that I "got dangerously close to admitting that toki pona can do something esperanto can't" in what I said, that only proves that your reading facility is only slightly less deficient than your reasoning ability. I will, though, admit that there is something Toki Pona can obviously do that Esperanto can't, make people make the most absurd claims about the ability of 120 words to comprise a complete language with the full abilities of a much larger vocabulary even as they prove that they can't. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:49 49558, So you don't want to talk about any of the successful translations you have requested so far :( Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:18:51 49558, A successful translation reproduces the information in the original in a way that someone who doesn't have access to the original would understand without recourse to another language. Toki Pona can't do that except for the most simple of things, JUST AS ITS INVENTOR SAID SHE INTENDED THE "LANGUAGE" TO BE WHEN SHE INVENTED IT. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:53 49558, That sentence you asked to be translated and the gerda translation both fit that criteria. The reason you specifically couldn't understand them is not because they were translated poorly, or they are unable to be translated, it's because you can't speak toki pona. Not that you can read it but how about the (absolutely perfect) translation of monty python and the holy grail which was linked? Did you even bother to look at that? Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sun May 4 13:18:55 49558, Too much comments Alex Hayes Sun May 4 13:18:57 49558, Is2DealYou Яаgиа Same, but it's entertaining in its own right, kind of like watching a three month train wreck. You Safar Sun May 4 13:18:58 49558, yea; pona lukin = attractive, good looking suwi lukin = adorable, cute (although suwi alone works) etc Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:19:00 49558, This thing has certainly shown that my first comment in this thread was true, it is silliness and that any serious view of the attempt to construct a workable, useful, easily learned lingua franca is best kept out of the hands of silly people. L.L. Zamenhof was not a silly person, nor a theoretician but a practical and brilliant man who made the only one which has survived more than a century and a quarter and which is actually used for something other than playing games and being silly in. Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:19:02 49558, Volapuk was too complex for easy learning and secure use and its inventor made the fatal error of insisting it was his proprietary property. A language has to belong to the people using it. Zamenhof learned a lot from both the good and the down side of the Volapuk experiment. I would like to know more about the people who read Volapuk and who might do those translations or use it for something. I think the complexity of it can be seen in its verb conjugation that has, if what I'm reading is correct, more than a thousand, five hundred possible inflections. Esperanto has six, which suffice for just about every purpose with some of the complexity of Schleyer's system taken up in a regular system of affixes which aren't nearly as complex. They're also not necessary for everyday use, for the most part. I think that all of the older constructed languages that have failed to gain an ongoing user community should be considered as having failed for the purpose of doing that. I have no problem with people who want to use Volapuk doing what they want to, though if I had to learn a language of that complexity, I'd rather learn a non-constructed language that was a window into an existing culture. As it is, I've read many things by many people from many different places in Esperanto, not translations but directly from them in their own words, Mongolia, Croatia, Bulgaria, (many European countries) Japan, China, India, Iran, etc. which aren't available in English or in an English text directly written by the author. I've listened to many radio broadcasts and, even more, podcasts of spontaneous interviews in Esperanto, talking about things that have nothing to do with Esperanto. For me, any competitor conlang would have to top that to convert me. You Safar Sun May 4 13:19:04 49558, Why do you have to be converted, why can't you just learn both :( Anthony McCarthy Sun May 4 13:19:06 49558, Granted, though after having had more than two decades of using Esperanto it would take a lot to convince me to learn another one. Someone once accused me of having Esperanto as a second language but it was not, it was considerably down the list. I can report, as I said earlier in this discussion, I find it far easier to use than French, my second language, which I use virtually every day. Phina Ibe Sat Sep 3 13:19:08 50557, Anthony McCarthy "The show that gets facts wrong about your favorite conlang!" Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sat Sep 3 13:19:09 50557, Is it over? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:11 50557, Not as long as people keep it going. If no one had answered me it would have been over three months ago with my first comment. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:19:12 50557, lol Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:13 50557, "Why did you hit the other boy, little Anthy?" "HE MADE ME DO IT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE INSULTED ME WAAAAAAA" lol indeed. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:14 50557, Don't be such a cry baby. I'd assumed you were all big boys, guess I was wrong. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:15 50557, _ Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:17 50557, Kind of a bad reason to like it, considering that that would stimulate the creation of potentially infinite microdialects. Either way, I'm not going to call it not a language and you can do you ( COUGH COUGH ). Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:18 50557, Is it actually used for anything by people who aren't conlang geeks? I believe I said that Logan and Lojban are languages, just that they aren't exactly learner or user friendly and they didn't generate a user base I consider all languages, natural or other, that are capable of a reasonable level of communication among people are equal.. There is no "best" language though there are lots of bad or, at least, failed conlang projects. Thousands of them. One of the best things about Esperanto was that it was, from the start, intended a an inter-communications language, not as a replacement for any first language. Lucille Francois Sat Sep 3 13:19:19 50557, This is possibly the best comment chain to show off when someone needs an example of linguistic prescriptivism gone horribly wrong. Just cause Esperanto has a larger community than other conlangs doesn't mean it's the best, or the most important. And someone not being fluent in a conlang doesn't mean they can't be critical of them. That's not how criticism works at all. Of course he is fluent in a conlang though, but let's ignore that cause Toki Pona is a joke or something. This guys subjective opinion isn't wrong just cause Esperanto is slowly going lower and lower on his list. It just means that you like a language more than him. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:20 50557, Actually, it's a good example of a bunch of silly people who don't understand that a. languages are meant for communication, b. in conlangs, it's the languages that people choose to learn and use that win. And that monoglots generally don't know what they're talking about, I will include those who take up the play language Toki Pona and believe it can do what it obviously can't Now, complain how long it's gone on as you add more to it. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:21 50557, Objection, the last time someone mentioned the length of the chain was you yourself. "Not as long as people keep it going. If no one had answered me it would have been over three months ago with my first comment." You are the only one left who is actively replying and still directly complaining about how long it's going. Everyone else has moved past that by now. You Safar Sat Sep 3 13:19:23 50557, I was thinking a while ago that Anthony is that annoying stoner kid in high school who always went on about how (insert shitty stereotypical drug album here) was the best album ever because of how popular and well known it was, to the extent that they never wanted to listen to anything new, and reduced any new music to a shallow comparison to (insert album). You're just sitting there like dude that was (insert how many generations ago) ago, and we've covered so much ground since then. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:24 50557, Well, of you "stoner kid" was over seventy, didn't do drugs or drink, didn't talk about drug albums or ever do anything else like you mentioned, yeah, I can see why you'd think that. Silly boys, don't you have languages to invent, people to not get to use them? sethraptor Sat Sep 3 13:19:25 50557, I have a confession to make. Ever since two months ago, I have been holding Anthony McCarthy at gunpoint and forcing him to respond to any new comments appearing on this thread. I thought it could be the greatest practical joke ever invented, but I have come to regret this decision, as me and Anthony both have now squandered countless hours of our tragically limited lives carrying on an argument that has no relevance to anyone on earth, and is ultimately completely pointless. Anthony ran out of new things to say even before I tracked him down using Facebook and my dad's credit card and put a gun to his head forcing him to respond to every menial and hollow argument with his own empty thoughtless answer. If it were not for someone literally holding a gun to his head, threatening to end his only life on this earth, Antony would have no reason or desire to continue this asinine discussion unless he was completely hopelessly mentally insane, or maybe just terribly lonely. Now that I have returned to my own life and finally let Anthony return to his family and his job as a teacher, there will no longer be any need to continue this pointless hopeless bickering. My sincere apology to anyone who has been affected by my actions. Now we can all return to our lives as they were before this ever happened.  I think we all can take away a valuable lesson from this, which is that you always have the choice to not respond to a youtube comment. As Anthony has pointed out an exhausting number of times in the closest thing to a cry for help that I would allow him to write without blowing his brains out, if nobody had responded to him, he would never have been literally forced at gunpoint to write an almost all the way thought out retort between one and three paragraphs, lest he be killed instantly by a giant gun pointed at his head at all times.  I wish you all good luck in your future endeavors, whatever language, real or invented, they may take place in. Tomorrow I will turn myself in to the authorities. Goodbye forever - Seth Raptor P.S. Sorry Mitch. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:26 50557, Even stupider than most of the other comments here and that's saying something. I've never been on Facebook. I think Esperantists and other people who are interested in using a language instead of pretending to make them up just leave this bogus conlang stuff to the kiddies. You Safar Sat Sep 3 13:19:28 50557, it's okay Anthony, you're free! You can stop! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:29 50557, You're right I am. I wonder how you'd say that in Toki pona and if someone who didn't know what you meant would understand it. My guess is no. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:30 50557, Anthony, are you actually insane now? Do you have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome? He's not going to kill you, you have no reason to continue anymore! Do you need me to call a therapist? I know how hard it was, do you want to talk about it? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:32 50557, Hey, I'd forgotten all about this till I saw the notification that someone had flapped their fingers at me. It amused me to answer it. Compared to inventing "languages" in ridiculous, unused alphabet projects and ridiculous "languages" of 120 words that don't say much of anything that's sensible. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:33 50557, Oh my god, it is Stockholm Syndrome! You think this is fun? Jesus Christ, sethraptor, you've completely broken him! Don't worry, Anthony, professionals are on the way! We can help you! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:19:34 50557, I don't think you know what "Stockholm Syndrome" means anymore than you know what phenomenology means. Which is an irony when the topic is language though one I'm sure you won't get, probably not knowing what "irony" means, either Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:19:35 50557, great improv skills anthony way to say yes Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:19:36 50557, Anthony McCarthy Shh, shh, it's okay, tell us all about it, you can trust us... Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:28 50557, Great way to, again, confirm my original comment in this thread. Admit it, this is the most excitement any of your youtubes has ever caused and you're thrilled by it. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:29 50557, But he does have Stockholm Syndrome! Well, on an abstract level. See, sethraptor was his physical captor (Rhyme not intended), but what truly kept him hostage was his task to continue replying to this thread endlessly. Sure, it wasn't as obvious before, with his aggressor making it clear how he would be punished and making it unethical to assume that he didn't want to stop; but now with physical freedom, Anthony is still partaking in and even romanticizing this argument! Just as the traditional Stockholm Syndrome sufferer develops feelings of safety, normalcy, and even love for their assailant, our poor nonconsensual comment warrior has grown to associate this utter torture of discourse with joy and entertainment! I understand trying to use more accurate labels, and PT+OCD does fit this case pretty well, but the point is that he has deluded himself past self-help. And regardless of the exact wording we use, we're still arguing semantics when we should be helping this man avoid succumbing to complete insanity! Anthony, I know you're reading this, can you please try to understand that what you're doing is not fun? We need to acknowledge this first before anything else; you have not enjoyed this, are not enjoying this, and will not ever enjoy this. This isn't normal! Please, return to functional society! I am begging you! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:30 50557, I can imagine you could translate some lines from really bad Tarzan movies into it. I would like to know why it was invented and what kind of "user base" it has generated and what use they make of it. Other than that, I don't know. I'd like to see someone translate that first sentence in this comment into it, doing a word by word retranslation back into English. How would you say "I can imagine" in the language, what with no pronouns or verbs. I can imagine trying to express the second person plural or, in fact, any large plural class would get rather involved. I can assure you I feel no stress, no trauma and no OCD in this. I've left it for weeks at a time before I noticed the little bell in the upper corner of the screen said there were responses to things I'd said. It was an exercise in testing how silly some of Youtube's, um.... "intellectuals" were. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:32 50557, What does "Stockholm Syndrome on an abstract level" mean? You get sillier with every comment. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:33 50557, But you yourself are one of those silly intellectuals, considering that you're still compulsively replying to every new comment and taking joy in it. I'm sorry, but I can't really help you unless you admit that you aren't enjoying this. Until then, I'll still be here. I know you can do it! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:35 50557, You say as you reply to what I said. I do have to note that it's really funny how you guys whine about how long this has been going on, making it go on longer to whine about how long it's getting. I think I said something about your projects reminding me of the Society for Putting Things On Top Of Other Things. I'm finding this mildly amusing, that's as far as it goes at this point. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:36 50557, "Objection, the last time someone mentioned the length of the chain was you yourself. "Not as long as people keep it going. If no one had answered me it would have been over three months ago with my first comment." You are the only one left who is actively replying and still directly complaining about how long it's going. Everyone else has moved past that by now." -Me, one month ago "Objection, the last time someone mentioned the length of the chain was you yourself. "Not as long as people keep it going. If no one had answered me it would have been over three months ago with my first comment." You are the only one left who is actively replying and still directly complaining about how long it's going. Everyone else has moved past that by now." -Me, again right now Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:37 50557, I think you've watched too much Perry Mason. Only he was careful to get his facts lined up. I was answering the whiny objection to my answering people who answered me. I think you have got to be the silliest people other than Alex Jones fans. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:39 50557, Who's Perry Mason and why is he relevant? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:40 50557, Try google. And if upon finding out who Perry Mason is and don't understand the relevance to your comment, that wouldn't surprise me. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:41 50557, I had actually looked him up before I even made the comment. Again, who is Perry Mason and why is he relevant? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:43 50557, It was his use of the word "objection" and I meant it as a joke. I wonder if someone could get that meaning from your translation if they didn't know what the original sentence said. I wonder why anyone would attempt to construct such a language except as an experiment in seeing to what extent the most common of grammatical categories are essential to communication. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:44 50557, So he said objection a lot? So he's basically just Phoenix Wright? Wait, but you're calling him Perry Mason... and it's still irrelevant! Oh my god, your memory is starting to deteriorate! This is horrible; I've never seen somebody fall so deep into Stockholm Syndrome, PTSD, and OCD! We can help you! Please fight it, try to stabilize your consciousness! Also why is he relevant? Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:45 50557, Also why is he relevant? Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:46 50557, AlsNo why is he relOevant? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:31:48 50557, Ramanuj, toki pona has the pretty obvious advantage of being rediculously easy to learn. even someone who doesn't think it counts as a language can see that. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:49 50557, Any list of 120 words is "ridiculously easy to learn" as compared to a real language, that doesn't mean that list can function as a full language. Even the inventor of Toki Pona didn't claim that it could deal with more than very simple ideas. Well, if you want a good example of what happens when you conduct your affairs on the basis of very simple ideas, look at the United States under Trump. I would love to see someone do a mark up of the "Graham Cassidy" atrocity that is going through the Senate right now on the basis of a language that doesn't even have a means of expressing large numbers, unambiguously without exceeding the limitations of the language. Your claims for Toki Pona don't match those of the woman who made it. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:31:50 50557, see, this guy gets it (also hey anthony what claims are you talking about? so far I've just said that I like it more than I like esperanto) Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:52 50557, That Toki Pona is a real language that can do what Esperanto or any other real language can. It's not a language, it's a game, I'd say that it's the equivalent of pig-latin or ubbi-dubbi but those are, actually, able to communicate ideas because they use standard English. Anyone who claims that TP is an actual language that can do what a real language can is a silly billy. Not even Sonja Lang would claim that. Or at least she hadn't the last time I bothered to look. As I recall it, the TP facebook page uses mostly English to talk about Toki Pona and it has a couple of thousand "friends" the one that tries to talk in only TP has a few hundred. I'd love to see them discuss something complex and abstract. Or try to. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:31:53 50557, "Toki Pona is a language that breaks down advanced ideas to their most basic elements." -Toki Pona: The Language of Good, page 9 guess Sonja Lang is a silly billy, huh side note: "silly billy" is hands down the funniest way you could ever insult someone Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:31:54 50557, If by "most basic elements" in a vocabulary of 120 words means "vague generality" it's accurate. If it is supposed to mean expressing its meaning then, yes, she is a silly billy. If you think think "silly billy" is the funniest I can be you should read some of the comments I made above. Which other conlangs do you actually know? I mean "know" as in could actually talk about something in. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:31:55 50557, I was making fun of you, ya dingus. calling someone a "silly billy" makes you sound like you're from the twentieth century. oh wait nevermind Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:31:57 50557, Nobody here is saying that Toki Pona is advanced but you, Anthony. I would say objection but I am too young to know why he's relevant. (Also, not to rush, it's been far longer than usual. Do you know when we can expect the Zese video?) Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:08 50557, (9/24/17) Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:10 50557, Again with the "oh you don't know any conlangs that I like so you are unfit to talk on this subject". (Nice.) Memnun Sat Sep 3 13:32:11 50557, anyone in this thread smoke weed Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:13 50557, Oh, what are you? 12? Apparently the oldest you might be is 17, or didn't you do the math. Maybe you did it with the three numbers available in Toki Pona. "Dingus" my quick perusal of an online etymological dictionary says that it is a word from the "late 19th century: via Afrikaans from Dutch ding ‘thing.’" Little boys playing intellectual, that's what you guys are Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:14 50557, It's not a matter of it being "advanced" it's a matter of it being sufficient as compared to real languages with sufficient vocabulary and it isn't. Phina Ibe Sat Sep 3 13:32:16 50557, Jesus fuck, did you make a fool of yourself. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:17 50557, I like the implication that I said dingus to sound like an intellectual Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:19 50557, I hereby arbitrarily decree that a language must be as precise as Ithkuil to be considered sufficient for communication. Well, would you look at that, my dearest straight-jacket connoisseur, not only is Toki Pona not a language, neither is any naturalistic language. Maybe arbitrary goal posting is a bad idea? But what do I know, I only fluently speak English, which is nowhere near expansive enough to compare to the soft, loving arms of Father Ithkuil. (Personally, I'm not certain that everybody in this thread is sober, Andrew.) Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:21 50557, That is an implication only in your own mind. And that of your fan boys. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:22 50557, Well, good luck with that. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:24 50557, ""Dingus" my quick perusal of an online etymological dictionary says that it is a word from the "late 19th century: via Afrikaans from Dutch ding ‘thing.’" Little boys playing intellectual, that's what you guys are" -Literally you, not even a day ago The implication may not have been intended, but it is right there in your fucking words. Jesus Christ, are you losing your eyesight along with your sanity? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:25 50557, I said "playing" not "succeeding in being" or is that too complex and subtle for your minds honed to a blunt and non-incisive obtuseness by TP? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:27 50557, and I said "sound like"! wow, clarifying is fun Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:29 50557, What the actual fuck? That was probably the most pretentious word choice I've ever seen. "Blunt" and "non-incisive obtuseness" mean the same thing; you just expended two more words consisting of 22 characters not including the spaces and "and" without contributing to the overall information of the sentence. Why? Why in the hell would you do that? Why wouldn't you just say "for your blunt minds limited by TP"? That's like 30 fewer characters and gives the same information. Is it to add emphasis? Is it to sound like a legal document? If the former, you're adding emphasis to what is already an ad hominem, so said emphasis is repetitive and unneeded. If the latter, then there's no way to deny that it's pretentious. Is there another reason? This seriously makes no sense. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:30 50557, If you like it I'm surprised you don't try to get better at it. "Sound like" doesn't get close to it. I can come up with as many insults as you'd like to provoke but it's really not that interesting a use of my time. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:31 50557, What is an interesting use of your time? Surely this isn't? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:33 50557, ok anthony you want a better clarification? here's exactly what happened: 1) you called me a silly billy 2) I said that was a funny way to insult someone, because it's really pathetic 3) you thought my comment was complimenting your wit or whatever 4) I called you a dingus 5) you called me and alex silly boys playing intellectual 6) I pointed out that your phrasing made it sound kinda like you thought "dingus" was the sort of thing a fake intellectual would say 7) you clarified that that was not your original intention 8) alex restated that it really sounded like that's what you were saying 9) you thought they were saying that I succeeded in sounding like an intellectual by saying "dingus"? I guess? I'm not actually sure what you meant by that particular comment but I think I've clarified my side of this conversation. please let me know if there's anything else you're confused about. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:34 50557, oh also somewhere in there you implied that I would forget what century I grew up in AND that knowing how long ago the year 2000 was counts as doing math Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:36 50557, There's a common English phrase for what you're doing, "grasping at straws". How do you say that in Toki Pona? I have to say, I've seldom been so discouraged with the products of the recent decades in education as this discussion has left me. Esperantists, even Idoists should ignore the current "conlang" scene because it has just gotten too silly. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:37 50557, if Esperanto has an idiom with the same meaning as "grasping at straws" I'm very impressed. also what the entire heck are you talking about Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:39 50557, While you could say it any number of ways in Esperanto, the common one is alrocxi sin al -ero. I confirmed that in Peter Benson's Comprehensive English Esperanto Dictionary. And if you don't understand what I said, I'm a lot less surprised at that then I was the first time I found this channel. Who would have ever guessed that someone might think language was about communication? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:32:41 50557, hey anthony I understand WHAT you're saying I just have no idea why you're saying it. what point are you trying to get across? I get that you think toki pona isn't a real language because it's too good at being simple, but are you also saying that esperantists, who arguably make up the majority of the modern conlang community, aren't a part of the modern conlang community? are you saying esperanto, by far the most popular constructed language, doesn't count as a constructed language because it's just so much better than all the other ones? or maybe you're saying that esperantists just don't like making their own conlangs, because they all agree with you that since esperanto nailed it there isn't a point in making any more? you certainly have written several thousand words in this thread, and I've read all of them, and I'm no closer to understanding your viewpoint than I was when you called me a fraud for not mentioning esperanto radio shows in a video about ido. didn't you say you were a teacher? as in, a person who professionally explains things to people who don't know about them? please, teach me. I am but a foolish teen, after all. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:43 50557, No, it's just the only constructed language project that has worked to attract a substantial user base and to persist for a hundred thirty years. It never had to be 'perfect" or "flawless" it just had to do that. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:45 50557, In language terms, a couple million people is not substantial. If all Esperantists lived in the US, they would be near 1% of the population. As it stands, less than 0.01% of the world speaks Esperanto. If we trust Wikipedia's "List of languages by number of native speakers" page, then Konkani, the 100th biggest language, has more native speakers than Esperanto has fluent (not necessarily native) speakers, ranking at 0.11% of the world. The only advantage Esperanto has is that it is known on the internet. Sources: http://www.esperanto.net/veb/faq-5.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ I know that none of these are concrete, but even taking these purely as estimates, Esperanto is generally less spoken than a language in India that I didn't even know about until now. Did it persist? Yes. Is it more popular than Mormonism, which is older by another half century? No. Is it influential? Counter question, are any internet fads truly influential? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:47 50557, It's a lot more substantial than 100 users and none of your non-fulfilled schemes are even going to get two users. And those users come from many different countries which is the whole point of having a constructed language such as Esperanto. The use of Esperanto was always meant as a secondary language of intercommunication between people who didn't share a common language. People who speak Konkani would use Esperanto to communicate with someone in Poland, Sweden, a country in East Africa, South or North America with whom they don't share another common language. To compare Esperanto to a national or regional language is to not get the point, at all. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:32:49 50557, Did I call any other conlangs substantial? No, I did not. Conlanging as a whole is not substantial as of right now and very likely will never be. The highest quality broken wrench is still a broken wrench; being relatively popular and influential means nothing outside of our little-known hobby. There are Esperantists worldwide? Wow, that fixes everything! Now there is perfect communication across all borders, never mind that very few of people can talk to each other internationally and are likely in the same demographic, you know, since they have to know what an auxlang is or be raised by someone who does in order to at the very least know Esperanto exists. Never mind that only conlangers and language enthusiasts can talk to other conlangers and language enthusiasts in other countries using Esperanto. Never mind that language enthusiasts tend to already be multilingual. It all doesn't matter because wow, how fucking amazing, a minority of people in one country can talk to an identical fucking minority in another. This excuses literally everything. And you know, fuck those Konkanis for speaking a language in a different family, it's their fault for speaking an Indic language instead of a Romance, Germanic, Slavic, or otherwise European language. How dare they have a vocabulary that does not correspond to Esperanto's? This is an international language, and that apparently means that it retains vocabulary and grammar from the only languages that matter: ones within a short boat or train ride from Poland. That's international enough for the average auxlang enthusiast, so the rest of the world just needs to suck it up and learn this bafflingly easy language like the rest of us. You speak Mandarin, an extremely isolating language with no European cognates other than modern loanwords? Doesn't matter, and don't complain that Esperanto is fusional because it's just so damn easy and international. "To compare Esperanto to a national or regional language is to not get the point, at all." Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that Esperanto isn't actually a language, I'm sorry for comparing it to languages, it's obviously in its own untouchable category. Just because it has words and a grammar doesn't mean it's a real language, therefore we are not allowed to treat it like a natural language, even if people consider it a "living language". It is simply a word game between European polyglots, except that it's not even a fun word game like the literally demonic Toki Pona. There, are you happy now? To escape criticism, your language is now in the same category as Toki Pona, which is something that you don't take seriously in the slightest. Is that what you wanted? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:32:51 50557, Many Esperantists don't have a European language as their first language. There are substantial numbers of users in China and Japan, including some of its most significant authors. Konkani is an Indo-European language, it is grammatically similar to Sanskritic languages. There are more than a few Esperantists in India, as well. You guys should get together and invent Sillibillian. Use the Shavian alphabet, which I bet none of you can actually read, not even English written in it. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:43:26 50557, That is the most in-depth deconstruction I've seen of any argument on all of YouTube. Congratulations. I'm going to sit back and see if anyone else comes in and makes this less stale. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:27 50557, Oh, for crying out loud. You guys say stupid stuff, I notice the little bell in the corner of Youtube is red, I knock it down. None of it is hard. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:43:28 50557, Do you want an award? You sound like you do. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:30 50557, I can conceive of no honor that you boys could come up with that I'd want. Strike Ecozzocn Sat Sep 3 13:43:31 50557, Anthony McCarthy this is the longest thread I have ever seen. While I don’t speak toki pona I admire it for what it does. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:43:32 50557, Strike Esozzocn I highly recommend that you read the entirety of the thread. Sarkar is right; it is beautiful. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:34 50557, What does it do? I mean, what does it really do, not what do people claim that it does. I would be curious to know what Sonja Lang does with it, though I don't seem to be able to find that out. I have read that when she translated part of the Taoist literature it was into Esperanto, not Toki Pona, though perhaps that's old information. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:35 50557, the most important thing toki pona achieves, imo, is learnability. additionally, the tiny vocabulary makes it so that in order to say most things, you need to define what they are. this is admittedly less convenient than the traditional "just have a word for everything" approach, but it makes it so that you can't talk about anything in toki pona if you don't understand what it is. this might not sound like an admirable goal to many people, and I get that, but I personally think it's incredible. the only restriction on what you can say is your own understanding, rather than gaps in the vocabulary itself. (unless you wanna talk about math because that's basically impossible) Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:36 50557, Why not reduce the vocabulary to 60 words, then? If you already understand what's being said why say it? What you are saying in this shows what I originally said, that your conception of conlangs is just plain silly. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:37 50557, no, see, it's not that the LISTENER can only understand what they already understood; it's that the SPEAKER can only say what they understand. for example, you can't say "radio" if you were born in 1998 and don't know what a radio is sorry, but if someone says "ilo pi pali kalama kepeken sona walo", even if you personally don't know what a radio is, you can figure out that they're talking about a device that creates sound using information that's made of light. of course, that's rather cumbersome to actually say, so in practice you'd usually say something like "ilo pi kalama walo" or just "ilo kalama", both of which are less specific but get the general idea of a radio across. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:39 50557, I know people who were born after 1998 who aren't so stupid they don't know what a radio is. I can't account for why you wouldn't have. Maybe you don't have a very big vocabulary in English. Can you get any sillier? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:40 50557, it was a callback you goof Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:41 50557, something like "nasin sona sijelo" I guess? I don't think I've ever said the word phenomenology in english so to be completely honest the answer is that I wouldn't say it Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:43 50557, I'm sorry for not responding to your questions it's just that anthony was out here saying much funnier things Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:44 50557, yeah sure go for it Mcguy215 Sat Sep 3 13:43:45 50557, holy crap, Anthony is still replying? It is so embarrassing for him, I would delete the comment after FO translated moby dick, but the thread continued! Mcguy215 Sat Sep 3 13:43:47 50557, also TWO THIRDS of comments on this video are on this comment... Phina Ibe Sat Sep 3 13:43:48 50557, JUST DELETE THIS COMMENT ALREADY, YOU DUD! Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:43:49 50557, Actually no, please don't. This should be a national monument or something. Phina Ibe Sat Sep 3 13:43:51 50557, Alex Hayes Look what Mcguy said, this comment contains 2/3 of the Comments on this vid. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:52 50557, How odd, I don't feel embarrassed at all. Where's the translation of Moby Dick? Do you mean the "translation" of the first chapter of Gerda Malaperis which I pointed out was no translation at all but a vague indication, something in line with Woody Allen's joke about speed reading, "reading" War and Peace in 20 minutes, "It's about Russia". Obviously you don't know anything about toki pona, even less than the silly people here who do know a tiny bit about it. Oddly, I don't expect such silly people as many who engaged me in this thread to feel embarrassment over not knowing stuff they were pretending to, of pretending that Toki pona is a real language capable of doing complex communication when its inventor said that was not her purpose and she designed the language to not be able to do that. Let's hear your championing of the Shavian alphabet. I could use a laugh. Phina Ibe Sat Sep 3 13:43:53 50557, Anthony McCarthy I can't believe that Misali hasn't blocked you yet. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:55 50557, Why? Because he's gotten lots of comments on one of his videos? Surely a desideratum of any vlogger. If he did it wouldn't bother me in any way,. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:56 50557, "vlogger"? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:43:57 50557, I'll have to admit I didn't take much time with that comment. "Poseur" more to your liking? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:43:59 50557, hey anthony, I suppose you think that's cute Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:00 50557, Oh, does that impress you? Among the people I know it's just another word. French is my first second language, I use it just about every day. I grew up among French Canadians from Quebec and Arcadie. So I know what it's like to learn a real second language, not a play one. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:01 50557, Geesh, thin skinned, much? chromaticiT Sat Sep 3 13:44:02 50557, mr. mccarthy is that you Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:04 50557, look, anthony, we've had fun here for the past few months but I wanna get real for a second. with no jokes, here's my understanding of your argument, in no particular order 1) toki pona doesn't count as a language because there isn't a significant body of works written in it 2) esperanto is like, really good 3) people who use fancy words are smarter than people who try to make themselves understood 4) this comment thread has gone on for too long but if it certainly isn't YOUR fault 5) I don't speak esperanto which means I'm a faker of some sort as I'm sure you know, I disagree with basically all of those points. however, you haven't really done that good of a job communicating your stance, so I'm certain I've misinterpreted your views in some way. if we ever wanna have a meaningful discussion, which we might not wanna do because throwing ridiculously mild insults back and forth is much more fun, it would be best if you go ahead and clarify how much of this is actually what you're trying to say. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:05 50557, OK, - T. P. isn't a real language because it can't function as a real language does, express a vast range of ideas to other people who don't already know those ideas, communicate needs, desires, etc. with the same level of specificity and accuracy that real languages do. - Esperanto can do that as by the way, Ido can too. So can most natural languages, especially those which have or can adopt vocabulary to cover things not already part of that language, T P, stuck at a corpus of 120 words, can't do that. The number of works written in the language is immaterial to it being a real language, though it can make learning it more rewarding - I'm not the one who brought terms like "phenomenology" or "Shavian" or many others into this. I don't have any problem with people who can communicate ideas accurately and effectively with a smaller vocabulary, In Esperanto I favor the same approach that Claude Piron did, which favors the use of a smaller vocabulary for maximum clarity, but one big enough to do that. However, I don't see any reason to not use a word if it's part of a language. - I'm not the one who has been whining about the length of this discussion. - I don't think you know what you're talking about, sometimes, though there are others in this discussion who really don't know what they're talking about. It's good to know things. Better than not knowing them. Language can be useful for that if it can express ideas clearly. It's not just some kind of game or hobby, there are important things to do. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:06 50557, thank you! see, now I understand you much better and can actually talk about where we disagree. - "it can't... express a vast range of ideas to other people who don't already know those ideas" I'd actually argue that the opposite is true! it's specifically impossible to talk about anything WITHOUT explaining what it is to whoever you're talking to. - yes, toki pona only has 120 words. that doesn't mean that there's only 120 things you can say. just like in esperanto, words can be combined together in regular ways to form new ideas; it's just done through word order rather than through affixes. - I see no reason to use a word if another word gets the same idea across more elegantly. - "Not as long as people keep it going. If no one had answered me it would have been over three months ago with my first comment." -you, two months ago, in response to "is it over?". this is pretty clearly saying that you don't think it's your fault that the thread is so long, but the fact that you're even blaming anyone about it means that you, on some level, wish it hadn't lasted as long as it has - ok I know that that last point is in response to my last point but it's still the most confusing part of your argument. the closest thing to like an actual insult you've said about me is calling me a fake... something? like you've called me a fraud and a poser (sorry, "poseur") but what exactly am I pretending to be? a linguistics educator? I specifically call conlang critic a "show that gets facts wrong" so that can't be it. a polyglot? I've avoided answering the "how many languages do you speak" question mostly because, as is pretty clear, the answer depends on what counts as a language and on what counts as speaking. but importantly I've never claimed to speak any languages other than english and toki pona, the two languages I'm most confidant in. I do, in fact, have passing familiarity with several languages, conlangs especially, but I've never been in an environment where speaking a language other than english was necessary, or even a viable option. no, I couldn't live in what I know of german, not because I don't know how to speak german (I did study it for years, after all) but because literally nobody who lives where I live speaks german so using german just wouldn't be practical. - oops there's a subpoint to your last point! are you trying to say that having fun with languages isn't allowed? like anyone who enjoys linguistics or conlanging just should stop? I sure hope that's not what you're trying to say because wow that sounds like the most boring thing you could possibly care about. oh no people are having too much fun! the horror! idk maybe I'm reading to far into things Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:07 50557, probably not, since I've only had experience with the language in an academic context Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:09 50557, Who said that having fun with language isn't allowed, I didn't. I said there was more to it than playing games and having a hobby of inventing "languages" and talking about languages that you have not and never will get around to inventing. Toki Pona cannot express a full range of ideas. How would you say, "the square root of fifty seven" in Toki Pona? How would you say "pi times the radius of a circle squared"? How would you say "all people are created equal and have an equal right to the due process of the law?" I will bet you that just about any joke you can laugh at in English can't be translated into it so that you could get a laugh out of another TP user. The creator of the language certainly didn't assert that her invention could be used to express all ideas that can be expressed in natural language, she said you could only use it talk about very simple things, that is unless she lost her mind and started making claims of that sort. I think my original comment on this video is more true than I did when I made it. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:10 50557, ok so you were talking about one specific type of fun. that's... better? no, toki pona can't talk about math. that's not what it was designed for, and if you want to talk about math, toki pona is not the language to do it in. it also won't be able to translate humor, but humor is pretty untranslatable in general. most of the jokes I'd laugh at are puns, and english puns won't work in tp and tp puns won't work in english. that's just how jokes work! however you did give a specific example which I am now obligated to translate: original: "all people are created equal and have an equal right to the due process of the law." translated: "jan ale li sama li jo e ken sama pi pali lipu lawa." back translated: "every person is equal and has the same abilities with regards to the law's (literally "controlling document") actions." this doesn't capture all the nuance of the original statement, but you can't deny that it gets the idea across. oh and as a cool bonus it actually is more efficient to say that than the english phrase! neat. I've already quoted jan sonja saying that it was designed to be able to express anything USING simple ideas. like just scroll up the quote is right there. the point is that it's possible to say anything by breaking it down to the simple ideas that it's made of. ok uh, your original comment? are we talking about the same comment here? the one that goes, ahem, "You have got to be about the most superficial commentator on con-langues since the idiotic B. Gilson. Did I miss the one where you said which conlang you're fluent in and read at least three times a week and can read new books in every week of even one year or listen to radio shows in every week? New radio shows?" the one where you follow up a mostly legitimate criticism of my videos (I don't go nearly as deep as a should and most of the stuff I talk about is super basic) by misspelling a word that's in the title of the video the comment was left on then insulting some guy I had no reason to have heard of before? (he does an esperanto podcast I think?) I just wanna make sure we're both talking about the comment where you have a paragraph break after one sentence and then proceed to show that you did, in fact, miss the one where I said which conlang I'm fluent in (episode twelve) and then go on to list some things that basically only apply to esperanto, (literally the only conlang where new books are published in it weekly) and then wrap the whole thing up with three entire spaces in a row and the assertion that radio shows are something literally anyone in the year 2017 cares about? this is the comment where I replied simply by copy pasting the last sentence, which, in isolation, sounded pretty funny, and then you proceeded to go on about how surprising it is that I didn't mention esperanto radio shows in a video that isn't about esperanto. this was the comment that prompted me to point out how radios aren't a thing anyone my age (I'm 19 years old!) cares about which for some reason prompted you to say literally the funniest thing anyone has ever said to me. anthony, this is the comment I scroll past every time I reply to a comment in this thread and I've read it so many times it's imprinted in my brain. its exact cadence has impacted my speech irreversibly. this is the comment that started a thread that inspired me to make a dumb homestuck joke remix and post it on my channel for thousands of actual people to see and be confused by. so, maybe you still do think I'm about the most superficial commentator on con-languages since the idiotic B. Gilson, and maybe you did miss the one where I said which conlang I'm fluent in and read at least three times a week and can read new books in every week of even one year or listen to radio shows in every week new radio shows. anthony, I suppose you think that's the truth. what it makes you is a fraud. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:44:11 50557, Akira was some random libertarian that started spamming about how the left is bad or something. I don't remember anymore, and I'm not rereading all of these 400 comments to find out by context. Cax Attacks Sat Sep 3 13:44:13 50557, Conlang Critic I bet you can't even translate everything ever written into toki pona. I bet you can't communicate with foxes in toki pona. Only real languages can communicate with foxes. Have foxes read Moby Dick? Only real languages have read Moby Dick. Foxes are serious business and only they can communicate in the UN. Foxes aren't very good at math though so I guess they're not a real language either. Errorite Sat Sep 3 13:44:24 50557, Just joining in on this glorious piece of history. A bit late tho... Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:44:26 50557, It's already been half a year; there is no end in sight. Long live the thread! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:27 50557, I'm not sure of a word that means - "someone making believe someone said something really stupid when the person making believe they did was the only one saying it" - but there really needs to be one because it's one of the most common means of mischaracterizing what was said online. That wasn't done nearly as often in print. I don't know if that's because there are so many more silly people typing stuff out online or if it was just harder to get away with among people who read books. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:28 50557, I am, though, confident you couldn't say that in Toki Pona. Cax Attacks Sat Sep 3 13:44:30 50557, I mean you didn't express the concept of "someone making believe someone said something really stupid when the person making believe they did was the only one saying it" well in english either so I guess it's a fake language that has no value and is just a game too. Also I like how you imply that the set of people who use the internet and the set of people who read books is a vastly different set and has no significant overlap. I like how you imply that books are the only kind of valid written literature. The other thing that I can't seem to fathom is why you feel that in order to like Esperanto, you have to put down all other conlangs. There's plenty of conlangs out there that are great. Toki Pona is cool and has an interesting concept. Some conlangs exist for artistic purposes or to push the boundaries of what it is to be a language. Some exist to facilitate story telling and world building. Some exist to try to find new ways to communicate with many people. The fact that Esperanto has native speakers does not mean it is more valid than others. The fact that it has enough users that it has books written in it semi-consistently doesn't make it more valid. Popularity does not equal ease of communication or how good something is. English is used by many many people, but that doesn't mean it's the best language and that others aren't valid. It's okay to feel a bit sad that other people don't like a thing you love, but that doesn't make it okay to try to invalidate other people's opinions or the things that they like. I'm sorry you feel bad, please don't be afraid to ask for help from people you care about and who care about you. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:31 50557, The only criticisms I made of Ido was that that it hasn't established a stable form and it hasn't attracted a large, continuing number of users. The only criticisms I made of loglan-logban were that it wasn't user friendly and that it was based on a bogus linguistics theory from the 1930s that just about no real linguists ever bought or believe in now. Novial, I only pointed out that Gilson's project to "perfect" it began and died c. 1998. My criticisms of Toki Pona are many and I stated all of them many times. Of those only TP is defined in a way that means it will never and could never be a real language on the same level as a natural language or a real invented language. I don't recall talking about the small number of native speakers of Esperanto, where did I give that as a criterion of why it is what no other of the languages under discussion is, an actual language of at least every week, if not everyday use of many, many people in many, many countries. People have every right to hold their opinions and other people have a right to criticize those opinions on the basis of their coherence, their fidelity to facts and logic and reality. If someones opinions can't stand up to that then their attachments to their opinion aren't based on coherence, fidelity to facts, logic or reality. There's a lot of that going around online. It's what destroyed American democracy. Cax Attacks Sat Sep 3 13:44:32 50557, See the thing is, though, that Toki Pona does exactly what it's set out to do and is still a real language. Since there seems to be a definition issue, could you please create a list of requirements to be a language? I'm really curious as to how you would define a "real" language Also if you want to get into political talk, if you think that the internet is the reason that American Democracy isn't functioning then you're just plain wrong. It's been fucked up since its creation and only ever barely functioned. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:34 50557, A real language has to enable the people using it to conduct their everyday life and fulfill their reasonable requirements for communication or it is not a real language, it is an inadequate code or a game. What the inventor of Toki Pona intended it to do was to communicate "very simple" ideas. If you want to conduct your life on the level that Toki Pona would enable you to other people would be entirely justified in thinking you were simple minded. The same would be true if you tried to conduct your life with 120 words of English or French or Esperanto (though about 1200 would serve you extremely well due to its word creation capability) or any other language. Basic English with its vocabulary of about seven times the size of Toki Pona doesn't work very well but it might just barely count as a real language, Special English from Voice of America is notably more successful though I wouldn't want to have to limit myself to it. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:35 50557, I didn't blame the internet for the problem that has led to the downfall of American Democracy but to the dumbing down and lack of integrity that is merely exposed by the internet. See, that's the kind of subtle distinction that was contained in my comment: People have every right to hold their opinions and other people have a right to criticize those opinions on the basis of their coherence, their fidelity to facts and logic and reality. If someones opinions can't stand up to that then their attachments to their opinion aren't based on coherence, fidelity to facts, logic or reality. There's a lot of that going around online. It's what destroyed American democracy. It's going around online but it comes from a more general dumbing down of American thought, and that comes mostly from TV, movies, radio, video games, etc. But people who have been so dumbed down often can type out nonsense online. Or is that too subtle for a Toki Ponist to be able to grasp, which wouldn't surprise me, one bit. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:36 50557, hi anthony! it’s great hearing from you again. I have a few things to say in response to your points: - “someone making believe someone said something really stupid when the person making believe they did was the only one saying it” is called “projecting”. in toki pona, I’d call it something like “toki nasa”, which isn’t as precise as the exact english definition, but it sure is easier to say, and speaking precisely isn’t the point of toki pona. why should you expect it to be able to perfectly and conveniently translate a concept you didn’t even know the english word for? - you don’t like Ido because it failed to be popular? that’s a pretty boring reason to dislike something. - your definition of “real language” excludes classical greek! wow - you sure don’t know what toki pona is trying to do, huh? it’s not trying to make it so you can only say simple things, it’s trying to encourage you to explain complicated concepts. the only limits are your own understanding of what you’re talking about, and the amount of detail you’re willing to go into. direct quote from sonja lang: “Toki Pona offers a path for semantic reduction. Just as we can rewrite a mathematical fraction like 4/8 as 1/2, we can distill our thoughts to their most fundamental units to discover what things really mean. We can understand complex ideas in terms of their smaller parts.” (that’s from page 10 of Toki Pona: The Language of Good) - “It's going around online but it comes from a more general dumbing down of American thought, and that comes mostly from TV, movies, radio, video games, etc.  But people who have been so dumbed down often can type out nonsense online.” I don’t understand what this means. as a tokiponist, which means I’m just a huge idiot who doesn’t even read books probably, it’s too subtle for me. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:37 50557, Where did I say I didn't "like" Ido? I didn't express any dislike of Ido, which I learned enough so I can read it. I'll bet I can read it better than you can. Classical Greeks and many others were quite able to conduct their day to day lives, not to mention communicate quite well in the language. Try translating Sophocles, Euripides, Plato or any of the other, many texts written into it into Toki Pona, I'm sure we could all use another laugh, at this point. If it had the vocabulary added to it to enable it to deal with the modern world, classical Greek could function as a fully adequate language. How would Sonja Lang propose saying "4/8 is equal to the fraction 1/2" in Toki Pona? What's not to get about that question within the statement that if that is the case then it wouldn't surprise me. There's some reason your claims don't cohere, at times and some reason you can't seem to understand when that's pointed out to you. Maybe you should listen to the radio more, it's more work than TV and movies, good mental exercise. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:44:39 50557, ah yes let’s argue about which things you literally said and which things you simply implied that’s deffo a good use of our time. can you order coffee in classical greek? if you can’t order coffee in it, it’s of no use to me. maybe if it had a few thousand more words, it would be functional enough to be a Real language, but actually it’s only a game. “nanpa ni en nanpa ni li sama.” “What's not to get about that question within the statement that if that is the case then it wouldn't surprise me.” asfdhfkjalhdfdgfhadjkfldhsfjhgjkfdglaf;gafhfsg hey anthony what the entire heck is a radio? where can I find such a device? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:44:40 50557, I nowhere implied that there was any problems with Ido apart from the two that I mentioned, the failure of the language to settle into a standard form and to attract a large body of users. Compared to Esperanto it is more of a series of closely related dialects of the parent language. I've thought it could be useful in Esperanto literature in rendering dialects. Well, if the language were supplied the vocabulary to order coffee, I'm quite sure it could be. People bought and sold things in the language, I would imagine including food and drink. You know, language man, that classical Greek turned into modern Greek, so that happened. I can assure you, you can order coffee in modern Greek. Maybe you should try googling "radio". Do I have to tell you what google is? Your radio humor is about as witty as Donald Trump's. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:54:57 50557, okay, so yes, you’re presenting ido’s unpopularity as a reason to dislike it. you’re not using the word “like” because that would be too Subjective, but that is what you’re saying. I’m not talking about modern greek, or a hypothetical version of classical greek that had modern vocabulary. I’m talking about classical greek, as it existed in ancient greece. that language isn’t useful for communicating in modern times without adding a significant amount of vocabulary, and yet there’s no reason not to call it a real language. okay so I’m going to stop this “I’m too young to know what a radio is” goof because you’re right it’s no longer funny. here’s my actual response: you think it’s hard to listen to radio? like, seriously? listening to the radio is “work”? I don’t think I actually own a physical radio, but I spend a huge amount of my spare time listening to podcasts (that’s what replaced radio shows now that the radio is obsolete!) and it’s a far more passive than watching tv. it’s an audio medium instead of an audiovisual medium, after all. you only need to be paying attention with one of your senses instead of two. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:54:59 50557, First, to say Ido is "unpopular" or to claim that's the way I presented it is silly. To claim I presented "unpopularity" as a reason to dislike it is as absurd if not dishonest. So your reasoning, as well as words, fails you. English c. 1950 wouldn't suffice to discuss the full range of current purchasing possibilities today. Are you claiming that means there's something wrong with the language in 1950 to conduct life in 1950 or that English in 2017 is a different language? I believe way back when one of your fan boys was trying to bring up other languages I noted that if they had gained the vocabulary to deal with modern technology and other things any of them could, theoretically, function as well as any other. I haven't made any qualitative judgements of natural languages or languages with sufficient vocabulary and linguistic resources to function in real life. If all of us knew !Xoo and it had been supplied with an expanded vocabulary as English or German or Mandarin or Arabic had, it would work as well as any other. Though it has phonemic and other features that make it almost impossible for anyone but the most devoted specialist in the study of it to learn as a quickly acquired, easily used second language. Those are things that Zamenhof took into account when he invented Esperanto, giving it features that make it easy to learn and use with total confidence - I mentioned that before, too. Not all "conlang" inventors did that. Interlingua keeps such absurdities as different conjugations of verbs. Loglan hasn't proven to be either learner or user friendly, either, even its inventors and early enthusiasts report having not gained full fluency in it. Your memory seems to fail you as well, you're the one who pretended to not know what a radio was when I noted that unlike other conlangs that there were enough Esperanto users for a number of radio services to have programming in Esperanto. That was your attempt at a lame joke, not mine. As to radio being a medium that requires the active use of the mind, more so than TV or video, I guess you don't know that because of your repeatedly asserted ignorance of radio. As someone who listens to radio radio services in several languages, including Esperanto, you'll have to defer to my experience until you gain that experience. Maybe you'd enjoy listening to audio drama as a bridge, the Lime Town series is a way for you to do both a the pod-cast is in the form of a radio documentary to tell a sort of sci-fi mystery tale. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:00 50557, The question isn't necessarily if scientists are writing papers in a language, it is if they could write them in it. I would like to know who leads a life simple enough so that 120 words which includes, if I recall, exactly three numbers in it. I doubt that anyone who can be said to be fluent in T.P can give any kind of nuanced information to other fluent T.P. users if they don't already know what is being said to them. As I said, it's like the old Woody Allen joke about speed reading War and Peace in 20 minutes, "It's about Russia". Esperanto was never meant to "take over the world" it was always intended to be a second language of inter-communication among people who didn't share another language. I think it would be enormously useful if it became the accepted lingua franca of science and other areas of life. It would certainly save a lot of time and money spent on translation or learning far less easily learned languages. Its (theoretically) uniform or near uniform pronunciation is, in my experience, an important aspect of its suitability for that. It isn't the only invented language that could do that, Ido could, if it could achieve a stable form, though for literary purposes the added flexibility of Esperanto is an added feature to attract learners and users. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 13:55:02 50557, wait, so you’re saying !xoo isn’t a real language either? man, your definition of “language” sure needs some extending. I don’t know what about “I’m going to stop this “I’m too young to know what a radio is” goof because you’re right it’s no longer funny” made it sound like I thought it was your joke? was it something in the phrasing that I didn’t catch, or did you just not read it properly? I’m going to be nice and assume it was something in the phrasing, because you’re very smart and read all the time. have you ever listened to the adventure zone? it’s my favorite podcast. (sorry, “pod-cast”) if it were played on a radio for some reason, there’d be no reason not to call it a “radio drama”. the first story is about eighty hours long and I was laughing and or crying the whole way through. my mind certainly was engaged, but you know what wasn’t engaged? my eyes! I wasn’t looking at anything! I’d say that’s a more passive experience than watching a tv show of the same length, both of which are more passive than playing a video game of the same length. man, I’d love to start actually talking about different types of media and their relative engagement levels. can we start actually talking about different types of media and their relative engagement levels? that seems like it’d be a much more productive discussion than “is this language real”. Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:03 50557, I didn't say anything about !Xoo that could possibly lead to someone honestly concluding I'd said it isn't a real language. Obviously the language does and has worked to serve the people who can use it with other speakers of !Xoo in their daily life and their communications and with either the adoption or creation of neologisms providing it with words as needed, it could deal with anything English or Mandarin or Japanese could. It already has more than 120 words and isn't restricted to the limited vocabulary that Toki Pona does. It isn't, however, easy for people to learn as a second language so its not a good candidate for an inter-language or a lingua franca. From what I've read about !Xoo it is quite capable of expressing deep nuance. I haven't listened to Adventure Zone. I have listened to Lime Town and it's very good. I'm an enormous fan of audio theater, especially the past product of the CBC which, unfortunately, doesn't produce it anymore. It's the real theater of imagination and new ideas because, as Rod Serling noted, it's cheap enough for an author to do different stuff in. I also like Jack Black Justice, though that's more of a comedy. There are a number of new plays produced every month for radio by the BBC, RTE, radio in New Zealand and Australia as well a independent audio theater producers. I don't know why anyone would bother with TV or Hollywood after they experienced it. Hans Lee Sat Sep 3 13:55:04 50557, Here is my attempt to simply rebut Anthony's points: 1. You say that you cannot talk about math in Toki Pona. However, an average person seldom talks about elaborated maths in everyday communication. This puts mathematics out of Toki Pona's goal, but this fact in no way makes TP less valid of a language. 2. You argue that TP is incapable of translating literature, and you even gave examples for us. TP is a language made to communicate simply and clearly. As I quote from jan Misali, "it is impossible to talk about things WITHOUT EXPLAINING". TP cannot translate literature easily, because it is not made for it. TP is a language for people around the globe to learn it easily, and get points across when talking to others. There is no advanced vocabulary, making explanation obligatory. This in turn makes it possible for everyone to understand what you say. TP is simple, and it's meant to be. Hans Lee Sat Sep 3 13:55:06 50557, Ramanuj Sarkar I suppose the creators have gone too far with simplifying the number system. But for my other point, TP aims for simple communication, and what you said has not convinced people that TP is not a good language in that aspect. Akira Enderle Sat Sep 3 13:55:07 50557, Anthony McCarthy, why on Earth are you still replying to this comment thread? If you are as old as you claim to be (in your seventies IIRC), then you're probably aware that you only have 1-2 more decades to live your life before you die. You are, without question, the oldest person commenting inside this thread.  Why the fuck would anyone waste the last years of their life arguing on the Internet unless they actually thought it was fun? Stop wasting your time here and go live the rest of your life before you die! Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:08 50557, Oh, dear,watch what you say about that, bunky, hubris has such a way of catching up with people. I might outlive you. You might understand that if you read stuff. Nathan Galler Sat Sep 3 13:55:09 50557, Anthony. Just stop replying... It is obvious that you we will never get any points through your thick ass skull. You believe that you can never be wrong that you have been fighting in a fucking youtube comment section for 4 fucking months you chimp! Nathan Galler Sat Sep 3 13:55:11 50557, Also fun fact! There has been over 207,384 letters in this shit storm of a youtube comment string Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:12 50557, Oh, you silly boy, if you wanted me to stop toying with you, that's about the stupidest way to get me to do it. Nathan Galler Sat Sep 3 13:55:13 50557, LOL, stop toying with me? Do you not see how much of a fucking time waste your comments are? And you think im annoyed or something even tho i just posted a comment? Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:14 50557, Oh, well, if that's what you think, just think of how much more of "a fucking waste of time" your comments on my comments are. You a very silly boy. Nathan Galler Sat Sep 3 13:55:16 50557, Yes, this was a big fucking waste of my time trying to talk to person like you. But i still find it funny that you have been writing comments for over 7 months now and you think that im the person wasting there time :D Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:17 50557, Ooh, and guess what, you just wasted some more of it. Apparently you have more time to waste than you want to believe you do. Nathan Galler Sat Sep 3 13:55:18 50557, You still don't understand you have wasted over 6 months of time writing on youtube comments? And so what if i waste 30 sec writing a youtube comment. Anyways im done commenting here since you are so stubborn and think that you know better then EVERYONE that you have been arguing for over 6 months about a fucking language Anthony McCarthy Sat Sep 3 13:55:19 50557, Oh, I guess I must type faster than you do. Or think faster because I doubt I've spent two hours writing these comments, I'd be surprised if it took me a hour and a half, most of that time looking up stupid stuff that you conlang rangers brought up like the Shavian alphabet and to check on the date of the death of Edmund Husserl. You boys aren't very swift, I guess. Maybe if you read more. c a t Sat Sep 3 13:55:21 50557, Talk about a following, this Rick and Morty fan over here be showing off with his radio shows in Esperanto. Oooo. Remember, its not a real language if it doesn't have tssisssciiii. Aj Rollo Sat Sep 3 13:55:22 50557, I don't know why I have done this, but I've actually spent the last while translating "Moby Dick" into Toki Pona. My first draft is here - http://bit.ly/1e1EYJv   - any comments or criticisms are quite welcome. WanderingRandomer Sat Sep 3 13:55:23 50557, Hi guys, I'm new to the party. This really has been a fascinating read, so much so that I felt compelled to comment (although, I can't say I relish the idea of this thread pinging my notifications for the foreseeable future but never mind). My favourite part is that Anthony clearly think he is winning this little argument. I don't know why he can't just accept that people disagree with him, instead of slowly undermining his own intellect with petty retorts and smug arrogance. Do carry on! Square Zack Sat Sep 3 13:55:24 50557, What does "commentator" even mean? Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sat Sep 3 13:55:26 50557, Wow. This thread lasted longer than I thought it would. The last time I was here was like from 5 months ago. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Sat Sep 3 13:55:27 50557, I was expecting more but.... meh. Federico Volpe Sat Sep 3 13:55:28 50557, Anthony McCarthy Sir, you're completely right! Luna Hoshi Sat Sep 3 13:55:29 50557, I think this thread is absolutely idiotic. Not just on Anthony's part (even though it's mostly him), but on everyone. You have spent the past 6 months or so arguing about Esperanto and toki pona. I'm not saying that Anthony McCarthy was right in any way, I'm just pointing out that this is stupid. (Ido realize that this is 1 month late) Alowishus Devadander Abercrombie Sat Sep 3 13:55:40 50557, I bet you watch Rick and Morty おらushankaboiおら Sat Sep 3 13:55:42 50557, Anthony McCarthy To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Esperanto. The grammar is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of academic linguistics most of the history will go over a typical learner's head. There's also Zamenhof's hopeful outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his name literally meaning "one who hopes", for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of the language, to realize that it's not just good- it says something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Esperanto truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Zamenhof's existencial catchphrase "Saluton" which itself is a cryptic reference the polarising issue of Eurocentrism. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Zamenhof's genius unfolds itself in their books. What fools... how I pity them. ?? And yes by the way, I DO have a Esperanto tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. おらushankaboiおら Sat Sep 3 13:55:44 50557, Shitposts out. do the woah Sat Sep 3 13:55:46 50557, This whole thread by you mr.McCarthy, can be summed up in two subreddits: r/iamverysmart and r/gatekeepers. Just because people don't learn the language YOU like, doesn't mean they're "wrong." It's what makes them happy. This is what everyone hates about conlanging community. The vast amount of snooty assholes who think that Esperanto is god and that all other conlangs are "stupid" or "copying esperanto." Because, believe it or not, conlangs existed before esperanto. * gasp * I know. Shocking. Alex Hayes Sat Sep 3 13:55:48 50557, I see that we're still using the word "boy" as an insult. DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 13:55:51 50557, OOOOOKAAAAY lots to unpack here Firstly, your comparing an artlang to an auxlang. But screw it, the beliefs of a "lowly YouTuber" are worth more than that of a "scholarly source" such as yourself if you're gonna be an jerk online, don't associate yourself with the movement. it's people like you that drive people away from learning Esperanto in the first place. I've seen first hand people discouraged to learn it due to idiots like you online. If you were an Esperantist, you'd, know that Esperanto was made to bring people together not be your excuse to complain about another language that wasn't made with internationality in mind. And so what, if tp, a language that doesn't have more than a centuries worth of existence, was to be ADAPTED as an auxlang, (given more less vague vocab, and more printed learning resources other than the one, lone book made by S.Lang etc.) then I, an Esperantist as well, accept it would run circles around Esperanto. Your comparing a book, not book series a book, to 138 years of resources and 2000+(those numbers may be off by a margin but the point still stands) native speakers. Piss off, and don't think your better than anyone here. If you wanna be a goofus online, work for Trump, I think he'll take a looking to you, ya might get an even better pay working with/for the president DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 13:55:53 50557, You Safar jes vi veregas DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 13:55:55 50557, Anthony McCarthy and yes some natural languages don't have and cannot write about scholarly topics so by your definition !xoo isn't a language (I think I'm no further than a 1/4 through this thread lol) DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 13:55:57 50557, I HAVE MADE IT TO THE END OF THE THREAD!!! I'VE DONE THE IMPOSSIBLE!!!! MI AL VENIS AL LA FINO DE ĈI TIU KOMENTO!!! MI HAVAS FARINTE LA NEEBLAN!!!! mi kama tawa pini pi poka toki lili. mi pali e ken ala!!!! I think that accounts for all the relevant communities it's been fun guys or is this thread still ongoing おらushankaboiおら Sat Sep 3 13:55:59 50557, DeluxeTux5249 I liked every comment in the thread. It was hard, but I did it. Also, "silly Billy" is very insulting to my people and you should stop using it. 海達覺得你好嘅 ハイ田は、あなた Sat Sep 3 13:56:01 50557, this thread is art Strike Ecozzocn Sat Sep 3 13:56:03 50557, Anthony McCarthy if we read more? You’re the one trying to get us to translate an Esperanto book into toki pona! Rúnatál Sat Sep 3 13:56:05 50557, this thread is a masterpiece and i hate it, thanks sethraptor Sat Sep 3 13:56:08 50557, Hi all you readers and commenters, welcome to the one year anniversary post for “New Radio Shows”; the comment thread where us rowdy kids goof off with an old man who refuses to acknowledge other people’s ideas. I’m SRG Thai Boxing champion and comedy writer Seth Raptor, one of the creators of the thread “New Radio Shows”. I play the part of “sethraptor” on NRS. Since my character’s incarceration at the end of season one, I’ve been working extra hard with con-langue critic, Anthony, and our other collaborators to bring you all even more outrageous internet discourse content. This interactive comment-based format to storytelling is unprecedented in both art and in the world of entertainment media, so it’s been very challenging and rewarding to work on this little project and see it grow over the last twelve months into something none of us could have expected when we ignorantly penned Anthony’s first moderately insulting accusation back in 2017. And can I just say, the time has just crawled by since then. It feels like it’s been so much longer than that, doesn’t it? It’s just crazy for me to think about how far we’ve come in that short time, it’s been an incredibly humbling and rewarding experience to see the reaction and support of all our fans while we worked on this weird little thing in our corner of the internet. So, first order of business, in this comment I want to send out a big thank you to all our fans, readers, and participants in the thread over this last year. We’ve had some great times interacting with the NRS community and reading all the nice tweets on the hashtag #NewRadioShows, and we’ve attracted a surprising amount of attention considering we haven’t spent a single dollar on advertising. We’re running this thing completely on word of mouth, so we really appreciate you guys talking about the show on social media and sharing it with all your friends. If you want to support our project, the best thing you can do is share it with your friends and family, and use the hashtag #NewRadioShows to spread the word about what we’re doing here. We’re really just a few guys on the internet, we don’t have any big company behind us, or any investors, so you guys’ support is a huge deal to us, and we’re so thankful for whatever you can give. Secondly, I want to make some announcements about what you can expect to see on the upcoming third season of New Radio Shows that we’re calling “The Dis-enlightenment”. We’ve already got lots of exciting content written up, and plenty of esoteric references to marginally notable intellectuals, requests for translation of arguably challenging texts, and 20th century grade school insults ready to thoughtlessly fling at any members of the NRS community who think they might be the one who finally gets Anthony McCarthy to admit that he may have made a few too many assertions about the nature of language and also the world in general. You can also expect to see more plot development on the story of my favorite character sethraptor, who as you know has been in prison for six months. And we’ll finally get the answer to why Anthony just keeps on responding to youtube comments even though he is not being literally forced at gunpoint to do so. We’ve all been wondering, I’ve seen the fan theories, and some of them are really good, but I think you’ll find the real backstory very surprising. Also, expect to see some special guests coming on the thread! I don’t want to drop any names, but let’s just say some of you lucky commenters could get the chance to move the figurative goalposts with the second most superficial commentator on con-langues. Some would even call him … “idiotic”... Anyways, until then, thanks for sticking with us for these TWELVE WHOLE ENTIRE AGONIZING MONTHS, and don’t forget to tweet about us with the hashtag #NewRadioShows to spread the word. As they say in esperanto, ¡Będziesz Hasta Your Bientôt! sethraptor Sat Sep 3 13:56:10 50557, Don't worry, we have some big plans ;) sethraptor Sat Sep 3 13:56:12 50557, Hey this ain't a competition, man, we're just here to share some goofs and poke fun at the problems with internet comment discourse. We want our readers to think of Anthony not as an enemy to be defeated, but as a human being with a very different way of looking at things. Even though we poke fun at him alot in the comments, the objective is always to come to an understanding of each other, and maybe to find some common ground between us. The message we're trying to send has always been one of respect, and we (especially me) often worry that we haven't made that clear enough in our writing. Dibyajyoti Lahiri Sat Sep 3 13:56:15 50557, To whoever it may concern, this thread, apart from giving me the worst migraine attack of my life, made me start learning toki pona :) Noah Losert Sat Sep 3 13:56:16 50557, Guys I think Anthony might be dead Brett Harkness Sat Sep 3 13:56:18 50557, Oh my god... I think you're right. Conlang Critic I think it's only right that you pay Anthony proper tribute. You must make a video denouncing toki pona and giving your life to Dr.L Leizher Z. Anthony, if you can hear me from that great Green Star in the sky, You will be truly missed Yarrow M Sat Sep 3 13:56:20 50557, Why are esperantists all such assholes? This is far from the first time I've seen an esperantist bully someone on youtube for not being a samideano. Brett Harkness Sat Sep 3 13:56:22 50557, #notall Firebrain Sat Sep 3 13:56:24 50557, mi pilin ike tan mi kama pi tenpo pini. mi wile toki e sina ali. linja sitelen ni li luka musi mute. (mi wile toki e "comment thread" la mi wile pali e "linja sitelen" anu seme? ) Firebrain Sat Sep 3 13:56:26 50557, Idk if Anthony McCarthy will see this (sona moli anu seme?), but "I'm free" translates easily into "mi ken pali e ijo pi mi wile" or "I can do the things I want." Not hard to do if you're willing to think about what you say. 64imma Sat Sep 3 14:11:14 50557, Anthony McCarthy I know you're trying to roast toki pona for it's impracticality, but I will say that there is a natural language (pirahã), which only has 2 words for numbers. One word for a small quantity and another for large quantities. You may think that it's absurd (because we live in a society that needs larger numbers to exist), but if a language has no reason to distinguish between 1, 7, or 567,492, then of course its number system is going to be rather limited. Toki ponans Do recognize the number system as a potential flaw (such as was mentioned in the toki pona episode), but it's countered by saying that oftentimes, having specific quantities specified is not always important. That's like making the criticism that a turkey baster cannot be used to spray, when that's not its intended use. Toki pona doesn't have numbers for specific numbers, because for its purposes, it's not necessary. Jacob Kang Sat Sep 3 14:11:16 50557, God this comment string is a legendary mess. Fernando Banda Sat Sep 3 14:11:17 50557, I just want to say that as much as I regret the time I spent reading all of this despite the amusement factor, I'm actually now very inclined to look up Toki Pona. And don't worry, I'm not discouraged to ever learn Esperanto at some point. Shells 57 Sat Sep 3 14:11:19 50557, Do I care that this thread was posted a year ago? No, no I don’t. Now to address an issue that to my knowledge was not mentioned in #Newradioshows Conlang: Constructed=Con Language=Lang Thus, conlang=constructed language. Esperanto is a constructed language. Toki Pona is a constructed language. Thus, THEY ARE BOTH FUCKING CONLANGS As much as it saddens me to admit it, #Newradioshows shouldn’t have gone on for more than a day Adonaí J. Arellano Flores Sat Sep 3 14:11:20 50557, Man the meme here is s u r r e a l Andrew Christman Sat Sep 3 14:11:21 50557, Jesus Christ. You guys are insane. Anthony must have a stick so far up his ass he can taste it. Just respect a conlang. I know I'm late to the party, but DAYUM this gave me a headache to read. Just relax, we get it you have a hard on the for Esperanto. You should have just left it at that. Now, once again I only read to about the 200th comment, and I doubt anyone will see this, but i just wanted to vent my frustration at reading these comments. The argument has very little progression. "Toki Poki bad. Not many words" stfu if you dont havr anything nice to say, dont say it at all. anpanboy Sat Sep 3 14:11:23 50557, Everybody in this beutiful comment chain has just got an unnecessary unfunny comment. anpanboy Sat Sep 3 14:11:24 50557, You're welcome. ilinniartoq Neriuutissaqanngitsoq Wed Jul 20 14:11:26 50642, Anthony McCarthy conlangs don't have to be spoken to be a conlang. Also what you're saying is like saying to someone who plays tennis as a hobby "stop playing it, if you aren't going to join a tournament" ugh Wed Sep 12 14:11:27 50891, Huh, so this is finally dead. Neal Pierce Wed Sep 12 14:11:29 50891, What a ride this garbage fire of a thread was. I could season nearly 4 tons of meat with the salt in here. ugh Wed Sep 12 14:11:30 50891, @Neal Pierce this has to go somewhere on reddit do the woah Sun Jul 28 14:11:31 50976, someone needs turns this into a massive google slide or powerpoint presentation just filled to the brim with nothing but these 400+ comments. this whole thread is probably the best i’ve ever encountered on youtube, Xax Sun Jul 28 14:11:32 50976, Stultus Films Yeah. Pretty spicy thread right here Danitonnan Sun Jul 28 14:11:34 50976, Almost 500 responses, people! We can make it! dukereg Thu Jun 13 14:11:36 51061, Damn it! I had a serious question for Anthony McCarthy. He was making a big deal of the limited number of numbers in Conlang Critics' favourite language so that CC could feel the hurt that Anthony McCarthy felt when Esperanto was criticised in an unrelated video, but Aren't there natural languages that lack many numbers? I seem to recall when studying Natural Semantic Metalanguage at university years ago that their "Semantic Primes" only had a very small number of number-related words because they were the only few that appeared in all languages. Just typed that and realised that this is a stupid place to discuss my question because this comment will never die and I can't be arsed scrolling down to read any intelligent replies that might appear. Oh well, at least I'll finally be part of something bigger than myself. <3 Mobius1 Thu Jun 13 14:11:37 51061, based DeadLetter Thu Jun 13 14:11:38 51061, Rest In Piss Anthony McCarthy vxcvbzn Thu Jun 13 14:11:40 51061, Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"; that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends. Conlang Critic must be Adolf Hitler's daughter Is2DealYou Яаgиа Thu Jun 13 14:11:41 51061, Anthony McCarthy come back. I need to see people bullying you more for research purposes. Is2DealYou Яаgиа Thu Jun 13 14:11:42 51061, Plus I wanted to see you people beat the world record. Alien Platypus Thu Jun 13 14:11:44 51061, Is2DealYou Яаgиа He responded like 200 times, maybe he got CTS so bad he died or something. ***Leticia *** Thu Jun 13 14:11:45 51061, It was a beautiful trainwreck. Thank you all. Kyle Neckar Thu Jun 13 14:11:46 51061, holy crap I wish I could save this thread somehow Ziyad Hamoda Thu Feb 10 14:11:48 51138, Brain xd anthony choongoose Lord LunaEquie is me Thu Feb 10 14:11:49 51138, Oh dear lord. I was only skimming and that was quite the ride. I'm half-convinced to learn Toki Pona now. I've got Japanese and Russian on my itinerary, so why not? silver & noise Thu Feb 10 14:11:51 51138, What the fuck is a "conlang"? Is it like that stuff the girl from Sigur Ros sings in? Real irony is "Moby Dick" being featured so heavily throughout this thread. Jay Thu Feb 10 14:11:52 51138, who's gonna get the last reply to this comment? find out next time on toxic youtube culture! Neil Gratton Mon Dec 26 14:11:54 51222, These attitudes are why I stay away from Esperanto and its haughty community. Relux the Relux Mon Dec 26 14:11:55 51222, Holy shit what in all cursed hells is this thread Joshua Bateman Mon Dec 26 14:11:57 51222, This reply thread is just insane Alexandra Townsend Mon Dec 26 14:11:58 51222, Hey conlang critic! I found your channel last week. This is easily the best reply thread I've seen in my life. Thankyou for pinning this :) Hu He Mon Dec 26 14:12:00 51222, WTF Oliver Robinson Mon Dec 26 14:12:01 51222, This is the most fuckin ridiculous thread oml Alice In Salt Land Sat Feb 14 14:12:03 51305, This thread WILD wild, and I’m guessing Anthony fingers most prolly been rot away to the point of him not being able to reply anymore 😔 ironic gacha Sat Feb 14 14:12:04 51305, legendary thread Emeraldstar_14 Sat Feb 14 14:12:06 51305, Anthony McCarthy Vi tre koleriĝas pri lingvo. Trankviliĝu Emeraldstar_14 Sat Feb 14 14:12:07 51305, Mike S. There is also a great worldbuilding series by Ewa U. spoken entirely in Lojban Emeraldstar_14 Sat Feb 14 14:12:09 51305, Anthony McCarthy they are languages (no matter how simple or alien) that were constructed. (Con)structed (Lang)uage. Emeraldstar_14 Sat Feb 14 14:12:10 51305, r ã h d î h ö w ę Joe Yuzwa Mon Feb 19 14:12:11 51472, Not even in the Norwegian black metal community is there an elitist so proud as you. I am barely read this without stopping to wonder why on earth you'd be so incredibly negative tjpiniella Mon Feb 19 14:12:13 51472, @Anthony McCarthy literally everyone else wins the long war The Zantidraf Fri Sep 6 14:12:15 51518, Holy shit that was an experience reading all of that. I hope whatever school district that anthony worked with found this Dab Boi Fri Sep 6 14:12:16 51518, This dude thinks he’s the shit cuz he knows Esperanto no one cares. Plus i have no idea why you are so fixed on continuing this novel of a thread. Long live the thread boys! jcqln Fri Sep 6 14:12:18 51518, commenting to leave my mark in history. the adventure zone (lup, specifically) is a work of art Gnome Slayer Fri Nov 5 14:12:19 51537, Sorry, don’t mind me. Just signing my name in this novel. Fif Gallag Sun Jul 15 11:43:47 51551, 3:40 As one of those “non-binaries” i love it every time you mention when a language doesn’t know I exist! :) Green146 Sun Jul 15 11:43:51 51551, All I'm worried about... Is ido mutually intelligible with esperanto Sam M. Sun Jul 15 11:43:53 51551, I've always conjured a certain stereotype in my head about what "an Esperantist" is like, and boy howdy does the pinned comment thread deliver on that. Todd Tolson Fri Nov 5 11:43:55 51537, Is /ts/ a sound an English speaker can’t easily produce? I don’t think we have a single sound which represents it, but what about “cats”? The coda should at least approximate the sound, right? My_opinion Fri Sep 6 11:43:58 51518, Anthony McCarthy, the one man you do not want to bump into in the comment sections. TheLazyWanderer Mon Feb 19 11:44:00 51472, ... Man is a synonym for "human" though, so maybe the "man" there means "human" and not "male" Using "man" to imply "male" should generally be obsoleted, it creates a lot of misunderstandings. Conlang Critic Mon Feb 19 11:53:08 51472, the primary definition of "man" has been "male adult human" for centuries and is, in fact, newer than its use to mean "human". if any use should be obsoleted to avoid misunderstanding, it should be its use to mean "human". Zeriix Mon Feb 19 11:44:03 51472, IDO es asun pijopik de Esperanto. MC Cookies Wed Dec 30 11:44:05 51389, Wait, /ts/ isn't compatible with English? What about something like "tsunami"? I understand that not all dialects pronounce it fully, but if you were pronouncing English "correctly", that would use /ts/, no? Caleb Berney Wed Dec 30 11:44:08 51389, Counterpoint to the flap/trill thing: I think if you can do the trill you can also do the flap, but not necessarily vice versa. Therefore the change from trill to flap is probably increasing the general usability. Francesco S Wed Dec 30 11:44:10 51389, boy, to learn how latin-based languages work you need to learn Italian Kaiser Tyranny Sat Feb 14 11:44:12 51305, I want to give a shout-out to Anthony for brightening up my drunken evening. Brian M Sat Feb 14 11:44:15 51305, The benefit of changing the alveolar trill to the flap is that for people whose native language has neither sound, the flap is usually easier to learn. It's for a similar reason that I don't really like the use of ⟨w⟩ in Toki Pona, because while it might be more common than sounds like ⟨ts⟩ or ⟨x⟩, it seems like people who don't have it in their native language have a harder time learning it. mannyfromsaneli Mon Feb 19 11:52:48 51472, In such a situation, can't speakers of a language that don't have /w/ substitute it with /ʋ/ or /v/? I've also heard, firsthand, Germans and Russians hypercorrecting with /w/ when speaking English. But maybe you're onto something; maybe only one semivowel /j/ would be more practical. CanadianKirby Sat Feb 14 11:44:18 51305, And still how Esperanto did it compared to a language like Spanish isn’t very good since it just adds on to one word for a gender to make the other gender unlike a language like say Spanish which instead of it being like Niño and Niñono or something it’s Niño and Niña so they have a base word to make it easy but for either gender there’s just a one letter distinction T H O T Mon Dec 26 11:44:20 51222, Isn’t English the third most commonly spoken language. Spanish is the second (I thought) Nils R. Bull Young Mon Dec 26 11:44:23 51222, Please, for the sake of the Living Frank, can the goddamn background music! Sherrig Ofdenmark Mon Dec 26 11:44:25 51222, I believe this whole gender thing is ridiculous and being taken out of hand, but if you are creating a language then you can avoid it in the first place. I don’t really care what Conlang Critic’s politics are, the content is gold. If you can create a language that let’s someone be content with their belief that they are a toaster, all is good. Rohan Zener Mon Dec 26 11:44:28 51222, The bottom line is, the best interlang would be compatible with Mandarin. leathernluv Thu Feb 10 11:44:30 51138, The five vowel system: Niyiyiyice pants! (Obscure "Whose Line" reference... It's here on Youtube.) Alpha_Mach Thu Feb 10 11:44:33 51138, "Please no politics" "Well, hear me out" >it's just more politics Thanks. David Simpson Thu Feb 10 14:24:25 51138, You talk so fast it's hard to understand you! mechnokie blood Thu Feb 10 14:24:27 51138, Normally people pronounce scii as if the last I is silent or they just stress the I Sprecherfuchs Thu Feb 10 14:24:28 51138, Pretty sure English is very unusual in not having linguistic distinctions based on how well you know someone. I think every language I have learnt has this, though not necessarily in the word for "you' Andrew Watson Thu Jun 13 14:24:30 51061, I hadn't heard of Esperanto until I just watched your previous video 1 minute ago. I found your channel because of your seximal video. Soviet Loli Thu Jun 13 14:24:31 51061, 1:03 The alveolar flap is easier to learn than the trill. I tried my whole life to do the trill, but to no success. Learning the flap took just a few seconds. This is subjective, but perhaps it's universal. And in that case, it's better for such a language. nupanick Thu Jun 13 14:24:33 51061, Not gonna lie, I watched like ten of these in a row and was kinda waiting for the pannenkoek joke, you've got the right voice for it and everything. Well played. Szymon Arabas Thu Jun 13 14:24:35 51061, Pannenkoek references <3 ertio Thu Jun 13 14:24:37 51061, I gotta to correct you We don't actually have a voiced palatal fricative in Italian, or at least not in the standard varieties, it is only used in some local accents and in loanwords. Guacamo Shakrtveli Mon Feb 19 14:30:53 51472, And we don't even have "h" LadyDeirdre Thu Jun 13 14:24:39 51061, The familiar/formal distinction in second person singular is extremely common world-wide. Indeed, English is one of the few languages that doesn't include it, and English did have it until the 17th century. unni Thu Jun 13 14:24:41 51061, pannen The1Floyd Sun Jul 28 14:24:43 50976, This channel is essentially a person walking around a room, pointing at peoples hobbies and telling them that they're no good in a condescending manner. Then you find out that person has his own hobby in the room and he is covertly trying to make you think it's the best one, deriding it's far more popular competitors. It's OK kid, we know you like Toki Pona, it's just the majority think it sucks. Conlang Critic Sun Jul 28 14:31:06 50976, that's a really good way to explain what a review series is Neil Gratton Mon Dec 26 14:31:07 51222, toki poni li pona tawa mi :-) Mr.Spøon Sun Jul 28 14:24:45 50976, Saying that how "woman" is just a variation "man" is sexist is a bit stupid Saying it's sexist implies it comes from a place of malice Really it's more just a product of our evolution/culture and in the old days it was considered normal, even to women Conlang Critic Sun Jul 28 14:31:02 50976, what is a patriarchal culture if not a place of malice Pokemon is cool Wed Sep 12 14:24:48 50891, It’s hilarious how salty people get about feminism. Just because you don’t like to admit that sexism is still a problem doesn’t mean you can pretend it doesn’t exist. Before someone replies “THEY ALREADY HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS!!!!”, that is true legally, but only in 1st world countries. Even so, cultural sexism is just as big of a problem, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t have shit like incels. Bruh Moment Wed Sep 12 14:24:50 50891, I do Aeturnalis Wed Sep 12 14:24:52 50891, imagine the level of douchebaggery and microphallicism it takes to be the "holy fuck leave your politics out of this" guy. Nile Snow Fri Jul 24 14:24:54 50809, Ya! Yaha! Woo! Please excuse me. I just felt your music needed that. 無口 Fri Jul 24 14:24:56 50809, I might sound stupid here, but doesn't English have /ts/ in 'rats'? I might be blatantly wrong here but I just want to make sure. Conlang Critic Fri Jul 24 14:30:57 50809, while the sequence /ts/ does exist in English, this isn't the same exact thing as the phoneme /t͡s/ (which is usually just written like /ts/ to make things easier). in English, /ts/ is a sequence of a plosive followed by a fricative as opposed to an affricate. even though affricates generally sound basically the same as stop fricative sequences, English /ts/ is not considered a single phoneme simply because it doesn't behave like one in English phonotactics. unlike /t͡ʃ/, /ts/ doesn't appear word initially outside of some pronunciations of loanwords. (eg. choof /t͡ʃuf/ would be valid but tsoof /tsuf/ would not be) /ts/ also tends to only appear across morpheme boundaries, like the "rats" example you gave. "rats" consists of two separate roots: "rat" and the "-s" suffix. the -s suffix creates a lot of consonant sequences that wouldn't appear in English words otherwise, such as /θs/ (as in "breaths") or /fs/ (as in "proofs"). 無口 Wed Sep 12 14:30:59 50891, Conlang Critic Ahhh, that makes more sense. Don Fatale Fri Jul 24 14:24:59 50809, What is it with the pointless background music on so many YouTube video? lorengo Mon Sep 8 14:25:01 50724, you speak so fucking fast ChangGoon Yi Mon Sep 8 14:25:03 50724, Do you know a newly constructed ConLang, Simi Orbis. If you are interested in this new language, please visit the facebook group, Simi Orbis. https://www.facebook.com/groups/162477131178334/ or the Youtube Channel, Simi Orbis. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdihXmTPIbfkurSMMCWRgIw T Orrent Wed Jul 20 14:40:26 50642, Unlistenable garbage. Stop editing out gaps in your speech, videos CAN be as long as ten hours. Yours isn't. פופ Wed Jul 20 14:40:28 50642, but english does have ts like in cats 0lly Melancholy Wed Dec 30 14:47:21 51389, Conlang Critic: "while the sequence /ts/ does exist in English, this isn't the same exact thing as the phoneme /t͡s/ (which is usually just written like /ts/ to make things easier). in English, /ts/ is a sequence of a plosive followed by a fricative as opposed to an affricate. even though affricates generally sound basically the same as stop fricative sequences, English /ts/ is not considered a single phoneme simply because it doesn't behave like one in English phonotactics. unlike /t͡ʃ/, /ts/ doesn't appear word initially outside of some pronunciations of loanwords. (eg. choof /t͡ʃuf/ would be valid but tsoof /tsuf/ would not be) /ts/ also tends to only appear across morpheme boundaries, like the "cats" example you gave. "cats" consists of two separate roots: "cat" and the "-s" suffix. the -s suffix creates a lot of consonant sequences that wouldn't appear in English words otherwise, such as /θs/ (as in "breaths") or /fs/ (as in "proofs")." Roberto Padylha Sat Sep 3 14:40:30 50557, Saluton! Mi nomighas Roberto Padilha el Fortalezo Brazilo. Bonvole, sendu al mi gramatikoj kaj kurso de Esperanto. Mia adreso : Travessa Jangadeiro, 76 Mucuripe Fortaleza Ceará Brasil. Dankon! Dio benu vin. Kisetoj. Ankauh Ido. פופ Sat Sep 3 14:40:32 50557, eu isn't common but it's still really easy to pronounce Mc Hobbit Sat Sep 3 14:40:34 50557, I don't get why they the feminine suffix is -o of all things. I speak English, German and French, I don't associate the ending with a female. Someone whose native language is Spanish or Italian would get especially confused because the -o ending is always masculine there. I cannot think of a language where girls are -o. Neil Gratton Mon Dec 26 14:46:31 51222, It's not, 'o' is the noun suffix. 'in' is the feminine infix. Harry Sat Sep 3 14:40:37 50557, I’ve just rewatched this and realised.... English has ts just it’s at the end of words like hats and darts Иван Рогожин Sat Sep 3 14:40:38 50557, I’m a native has-distinction-between-formal-and-intimate-you-language speaker, and it’s not about not being in yours, it’s definitely a stupid thing to have even in a natural language. There are no clear rules, sometimes you’re forced to just ask what one the one prefers, sometimes you keep communicating in moths avoiding using not only the pronoun but also all the second person forms of verbs and adjectives which is highly annoying. I wish we could just speak same to anyone and this possibility is one of the best things about English. "Woman is a kind of man" is not really natural… On the contrary, man is actually kind of woman in the first place, ’cause the earlier organisms were reproductive and only later some of them developed additional gender to spread functions on. I dunno why did later people decide to make the male one primal if they could just do the neutral thing (well, some did). Pity the music volume spoiled the video. Soviet Loli Thu Jun 13 14:47:30 51061, Languages were invented before Darwin was even born, so these uncultured neanderthals had no idea. Patricia McGeorge Sat Sep 3 14:40:41 50557, I can't seem to reply to Anthony McArthy, but can I mention that A) You don't have to speak a language fluently to be able to work with it. Without knowing a word of Arabic, I beat an Arabic person on an Arabic test because linguistics. Case in point - LangFocus Chanel B) A show like this wouldn't work if he was fluent in every language he reviewed - he almost certainly doesn't have the time to learn enough languages to make a consistent Conlang Critic show C) Being fluent in a language is one thing, reading three times a week in it is another. That's not knowing the language - that's downright obsession and a potential waste of time (depending on your time management skills) D) You seriously expect Esperanto to become a functional interlang? I speak Esperanto fluently, but I do it as a hobby, and to add a language to the list of those I know. It isn't, and is unlikely to ever be, an interlang. Quality Content Sat Sep 3 14:40:42 50557, Sorry mate, but doesn't English have /ts/? - Cats - Bats - Rats - Mates - Gates etc. Quality Content Sat Sep 3 14:40:44 50557, Sorry mate, but doesn't English have /ts/? - Cats - Bats - Rats - Mates - Gates etc. Heimerblaster Sat Sep 3 14:40:46 50557, Great Episode iv been vey interested in IDO and the video was very interesting. I think it would be interesting for you to make a vid a bout how to fix the problems you out line. ajoajoajoaj Sat Sep 3 14:40:47 50557, Ido is just a bland, soulless form of Esperanto. For all of Esperanto's practical faults, it is today a living and breathing language virtually as much as any natural one and Ido purged of all that made it stand out as a unique idiom in its own right in favour of turning in into a generic Romanceclone. Epic Stimulus Sat Sep 3 14:40:49 50557, 0:30 - 0:32 lol Entire Total Sat Sep 3 14:40:51 50557, Can any Spanish speaker confirm that "ido" means "crazy" en español? Ken Collins Sat Sep 3 14:40:52 50557, Esperanto is the only constructed language that is not an under-construction language, the only one with millions of speakers, and the only one with native speakers, hardback books, books on subjects other than itself, and is the only one used as the language of instruction in a graduate school for the sciences. It serves as a base (Ido) or a source (Toki Pona) for other constructed languages. In its 150-year history, it has has developed in the same way and at the same pace as natural languages. The sentence "bonvolu alklaki ĉi tiun legilon por vidi mian mojosan retejon" would be valid Esperanto words and good Esperanto grammar in 1887 (though "mojosa" is recent), but Zamenof would have no clue what it means. Every Esperanto-speaker today knows that it means "please click on this link to see my cool website." Which other of these languages can boast hardback books. books on topics other than the language itself, and its own popular music? Esperanto functions as a living language today. There is really no point in reviewing it here. https://youtu.be/C9yugFqefP8, https://youtu.be/vLMeDv7_a0U https://youtu.be/_aN94LWe9roesper Quality Content Sat Sep 3 14:40:54 50557, English TOTALLY has a /ts/ sound. If it didn't have the alveolar flap it'd be compatible with English, and it already is with Scottish English. Quality Content Sat Sep 3 14:40:55 50557, English TOTALLY has a /ts/ sound. If it didn't have the alveolar flap it'd be compatible with English, and it already is with Scottish English. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 14:47:15 50557, whoah, scottish english has /eu/? Quality Content Sat Sep 3 14:47:16 50557, No, it does not. My mistake. It is compatible with the rest though. Clive Goodman Sat Sep 3 14:40:58 50557, The combination 'ts' exists in English as in 'cats'. It is not considered a phoneme, however, but a combination of phonemes. Nevertheless it can be easily pronounced by native English speakers. Entire Total Sat Sep 3 14:46:46 50557, Noam Tashma Sat Sep 3 14:41:00 50557, Request: Modern Hebrew! Obviously, not really a conlang, but it has some conlanging in it - at the very very beggining elements from different versions of hebrew (biblical, talmudic, mishnaic, and the such) were picked and chosen to form the beggining of modern hebrew. Then at the early stages, people deliberately made up new words (preferably with old roots) for new modern concepts, or readapted old words. Basically, each word currently in hebrew is either a loanword, slang, or was intentionally invented or picked up from an extinct version of hebrew. Rolf Hartmann Sat Sep 3 14:41:02 50557, Isn't the Alveolar affricate (/ts/) the sound you make at the end of english words like "hates"? At least that's how I'd pronounce it. Harrison Cwiklinski Sat Sep 3 14:56:56 50557, 3:36, You are awesome! I heard that and I immediately knew what you were referring to. Naþan Ø Sat Sep 3 14:56:58 50557, Hm, has anyone done a condialect yet? Marios Rouggeris Sat Sep 3 14:57:00 50557, why do you hate the vowel system? Xanman Gaming Sat Sep 3 14:57:01 50557, 3:43 did pannenkoek even get into here Brendan Ózi Sat Sep 3 14:57:03 50557, Hello my interlang has a four vowel system and 16 phonemes. But it uses š and ž because i<3háčeks mannyfromsaneli Mon Feb 19 15:02:54 51472, You should make a video about it. Theodore Landman Sat Sep 3 14:57:05 50557, "eurocentric" wtf cuckistani propaganda Hector Quinones Sat Sep 3 14:57:07 50557, Cool music, but too loud MadVulcan Sat Sep 3 14:57:09 50557, 3:30 As a Kid I always thought it was childish to automatically assume that "Its sexism" all the time as your first thought to a gender difference. I saw it like that cause that was the farthest thing to my little mind than anything else. Me, I thought it was cause of an unimaginative mind, a mistake, laziness, didn't care, you know, I actually put some thought in it, than going on blowing assertions out my ass. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:02:10 50557, so what do YOU call it when women are blatantly treated worse than men? for example, a constructed language giving men their own basic roots and then deriving the terms for women from those roots, instead of just, you know, having gender neutral roots that words for women and men both derive from? I call it sexism MadVulcan Sat Sep 3 15:02:12 50557, I can't speak for the myriad of gender inequalities women and men face in the world  but just sticking to constructed languages here. I'm pretty sure many more astute viewers would bring up your Láadan review. A conlang were it gives women their own basic roots and then deriving the terms for men from that roots, you reframed from saying thats sexism. For other conlangs that do that use men as their own basic roots and then deriving the terms for women from those roots, I don't think it was out of any malice towards women. This subject is just to vas and complicated for me to type all out I would say look up some sites/videos on the subject like Doctor. J. Peterson and the like. PastelJelly 2 Sat Sep 3 14:57:11 50557, Boobs Brendan Ózi Sat Sep 3 14:57:13 50557, Rosa Lovecraft Sat Sep 3 14:57:15 50557, Technically speaking English does have the ts affricate, it's just that most speakers are too lazy to pronounce it. it's in the loanword tsunami, for those of you who are particularly dense. that being said, I don't think any English word (loanword or not) uses the eu diphthong. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:02:32 50557, the reason most people don't pronounce tsunami with an affricate is the same reason most people don't pronounce croissant with a nasal vowel: it's not a phonemic sound in english. if you count sounds that only appear in pedantic pronunciations of loanwords, you can argue that english has whatever sounds you like. The Perpetual Procrastinator Sat Sep 3 14:57:29 50557, If you were to design an inventory for an auxlang what phonemes would you use? David Shaner Sat Sep 3 14:57:31 50557, i’m entirely missing the point of the territorial responses of the conlang critic’s critics. why does he need to defend his opinion-giving, credibility, scholarship, or conclusions? esperanto, a gesture of hope in a hopeless world, is an international auxillary language...cobbled from european languages. thanks, european hegemony, for saving us from ourselves — again! currently, the lingua franca is english — with crippling problems, yes, but how does esperanto really serve as an improvement; rather, how is it necessary? conlangs certainly can help us understand “real” languages, and i do believe ials have an intrinsic philosophical value. i also believe real-world experience, as in everything else, gets in the way of our best efforts. Jacob Locklear Sat Sep 3 14:57:33 50557, There are only two genders. Stop adding politics into your videos and just review the dam languages Jacob Locklear Sat Sep 3 15:02:42 50557, Ps love what you do keep it up Neil Gratton Mon Dec 26 15:02:44 51222, Are we talking grammatical gender? Because some languages have way more than two! Ike Moon Sat Sep 3 14:57:35 50557, 2:09 "Bits" also, some people pronounce "tsunami" with /ts/ at the beginning, though granted it's a loan word. ("it's") Ken Collins Sat Sep 3 14:57:37 50557, Esperanto doesn't think a woman is a kind of man. In most of Esperanto's source languages, the ending -o is neuter. All nouns in Esperanto are neuter and a special feminine form can be made by using the heavily used German/Dutch/whatever else suffix -in. The pattern of specifying female continues in the kinship terms. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:03:45 50557, so, if "virino" isn't the word for "man" then a suffix meaning "female", then what does "vir(o)" on its own mean? it certainly doesn't mean "person". Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 15:03:47 50557, Not all nouns are neuter. All inanimates are neuter, and the majority of animates are. But there are a handful of inherently masculine nouns and some inherently feminine. Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 15:03:48 50557, -in only means "female" when used with neuter roots, e.g. "heroino". It cannot have the exact same meaning for masculine words: "patrino" doesn't mean "female father". That would be silly. It means "the female counterpart of father". Ken Collins Sat Sep 3 15:03:49 50557, You have to make a distinction between grammatical gender and semantic meaning. In German, one of Zamenhof's major source languages, diminutives are grammatically neuter. They take neuter articles and adjectives, as in das Männchen and das Weibchen. Both words are grammatically neuter, but the first one refers only to a male creature and the second one only to a female creature. In the Slavic languages, masculine nouns generally end in a consonant, feminine nouns in -A, and neuter nouns in -O. Bialystok was in the Russian Empire, Zamenhof's medical education was in Russian, Esperanto has slavic phonology, and the first Esperanto grammar pamphlet was published in Russian. Accordingly in Esperanto, all nouns end in -O and are grammatically neuter, but they could refer to masculine, feminine, or neuter things. Gender and sex don't necessarily coincide. In German, a man can be a Person and a woman can be a Mensch, even though Person is grammatically (but not semantically) feminine and Mensch is grammatically (but not semantically) masculine. In Esperanto, all nouns are grammatically neuter, but they can refer to masculine, feminine, or neuter things—such as instruisto, which can be a man, a woman, or, hypothetically, a robot. Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 15:03:51 50557, I agree that esperanto doesn't have grammatic gender. But if you want to talk about the feminine suffix then you need to take into account that esperanto roots have neuter (most of them), masculine or feminine meaning. The suffix won't have the exact same meaning on neuter words and on masculine roots. Ken Collins Sat Sep 3 15:03:52 50557, Zamenhof took the -in suffix from German. He might not have known this, but it is also used in Dutch. The German suffix -in is used extensively in help wanted ads, such as "looking for a Reporter/in," and in other contexts where it is necessary to be explicitly inclusive, even when the masculine form is inclusive on its own. All Esperanto nouns are grammatically neuter (gender, not sex). Some have masculine or feminine (sex, not gender) meanings, but aside from kinship terms, nouns that refer to people are not specific to the person's sex. For example, a flegisto is either a man or a woman. A flegistino can only be a woman. There is no way to specify that flegisto only refers to a man. Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 15:03:54 50557, Mi ne diris alie. Clive Goodman Sat Sep 3 15:03:55 50557, Ken Collins. In Russian 'o' is a neuter suffix, but in Italian and Spanish it is a Masculine suffix. Ken Collins Sat Sep 3 15:03:57 50557, Spanish wasn't one of Zamenhof's source languages. Edward Davis Sat Sep 3 14:57:39 50557, at the time of THIS video, I know waht esperanto is, but when I found your channel, I did not. I am just a conliguist that was looking for cool conlang channels. Currently working on my 5th conlang, all for my book :) Leo Morgenstern Sat Sep 3 14:57:41 50557, German has eu but it's spoken more like oi Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:03:01 50557, yeah you got me /ɔʏ/ and /eu/ are clearly the same sound dr ostrich Sat Sep 3 14:57:43 50557, Lets cut the international language in half Ike Moon Sat Sep 3 14:57:45 50557, Lydstrykken af musikken var for høj Ike Moon Sat Sep 3 15:03:24 50557, El volumen de la musica era demasiada alta Ike Moon Sat Sep 3 15:03:27 50557, Dude the beat's kickin' too hard aight DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 15:15:50 50557, Although , about the gender neutral pronoun, gxi (it) it not a dehumanizing pronoun like in English. Hell I use it all the time. Gxi faris gin (they/it did it) I agreed and understood everything in this and the Esperanto video (especially after digging through comments to find what you believed it to be) but I'd like to put a suggestion: go to communities if possible. It can help clarify different nuances of the language that are otherwise obscured by formal study JoystickAnimation Sat Sep 3 15:15:52 50557, Do elvish SuperIdiotMan00 Sat Sep 3 15:15:55 50557, Music at the end is too loud. Kyazar Shadala Sat Sep 3 15:16:07 50557, I would never have expected pannenkoek reference in a linguistic video Mr. Rich B.O.B Sat Sep 3 15:16:09 50557, English has /t͡s/, we're just stupid and don't think we have it. For some reason, an initial "t" is magically ignored :P Alsom @ 3:41, oh heck yeah, because of that, if I ever work on another conlang, I'm inventing gender rules specifically to repress non-binary. Bluemon Mon Feb 19 15:21:58 51472, english doesn't have /t͡s/ as a separate phoneme. it's just /t/ and /s/. that's why we don't pronounce the initial "t" Mr. Rich B.O.B Sat Sep 3 15:16:11 50557, "If you don't know what Esperanto is, please tell me how you found this video and why you're watching it..." Dude, I can honestly say, I have never legitly laughed out loud in my life, before. Baptiste Clugéry-sénégas Sat Sep 3 15:16:13 50557, Thx to speak about the inner sexism of esperanto. I'm learning esperanto, and when I discover that all noun are masculin. In tried to discusse with fellow esperantisto. They said "you have to understand that is a 19th century conlang, so it's a reminiscence of the mentality". So I'm relief that i'm not the only one to see that. (sorry for my english) Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 15:22:46 50557, If you discovered that all nouns are masculine in esperanto, then you weren't learning esperanto. Only a handful of words are inherently masculine. Some are inherently feminine. All nouns for inanimates and the majority of nouns for animates are neuter. Mosco Monster Sat Sep 3 15:16:15 50557, the first videos were cool and all, but this is getting kinda repetitive. Isn't there anything more interesting to talk about these conlangs other than their excessive sounds, strange grammar and political afiliation? Bcoo1 ? Sat Sep 3 15:16:17 50557, Have you done Novial? Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:21:11 50557, just updated the Big List Strike Ecozzocn Sat Sep 3 15:16:19 50557, 2:13 as a native English speaker I can say that English has t͡s what about pizza or any plural noun that ends in ‘t’ Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:22:07 50557, that's /ts/, not /t͡s/. the difference is subtle but important! Timothy Verma Sat Sep 3 15:22:09 50557, Chrice Chiu Sat Sep 3 15:22:10 50557, Tsunami. Masteredog Films Sat Sep 3 15:22:11 50557, Tsunami is a Japanese loanword Soviet Loli Thu Jun 13 15:22:13 51061, I always cringe when I hear the English pronounciation of ps, ks and ts in loanwords. Which tend to be s, z and s. Golden Plastic Sat Sep 3 15:16:22 50557, English has the ts sound. Conlang Critic Sat Sep 3 15:21:51 50557, not phonemically Clive Goodman Sat Sep 3 15:21:52 50557, Conlang Critic. So what? Entire Total Sat Sep 3 15:21:54 50557, /ŋ/ is a phoneme in English, but good luck teaching English speakers to reliably pronounce and hear it in initial position. The same argument applies to /ts/. Arturo Stojanoff Sat Sep 3 15:16:24 50557, "My idiolect of written English..." What the hell?? The Major Sun May 4 15:16:25 49558, I agree on the sexist part in languages, but I agree a conlang should have things like professions be neuter and if a woman or man is having said profession a prefix, infix, suffix, circumfix, interfix, simulfix, transfix, suprafix or a disfix. Gender 1 / Gender 2 / Gender not specified. Let's make up a word, let's say Komcham let's say it's a title of some sort(profession, name, stage in life and so on...) Then let's say that the unspecified gender of said title, is Komchamu, Komchami is the female, and komchame is the male. Or ukomcham, ikomcham, ekomcham; depending on what one prefers when making a language, infixes could be used as well. Komucham, Komicham, Komecham. Circumfix ukomchamu, ikomchami, ekomchame. The rest aren't so easy to show off though. Bacon Sun May 4 15:16:27 49558, Sophiα2329 Sun May 4 15:16:29 49558, does half an A press %%%, Conlang Critic, %%%%% (come to think of it that's not a bad symbol for a clap) Kóta Sun May 4 15:16:30 49558, It upsets me that people think gender/sex identity has anything to do with politics... Or, rather, that in the public mind it has /become/ almost exclusively about politics. Jeshua Tehillah Sun May 4 15:16:32 49558, when will you do Angos Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:21:20 49558, you've already requested that! don't worry, your first request was noted on the Big List, which you can see by donating to my Patreon patreon.com/hbmmaster Omega Fallon Sun May 4 15:16:34 49558, keep your politics in these videos Öğrenci Sarp Eren Hangişi Sun May 4 15:16:36 49558, Hahaha tj """""""Henry""""""" Yoshi reference Louis Corbett Sun May 4 15:16:38 49558, Women and men are different, it's not sexist it's natural... like language. Mauricio Liadanni Sun May 4 15:32:39 49558, Spanish is the second most spoken language, not english Neil Gratton Mon Dec 26 15:38:15 51222, It depends if you include second language speakers. matthew fanous Sun May 4 15:32:42 49558, that pannenkoak meme came straight out of nowhere, and i freaking love it Soviet Loli Thu Jun 13 15:39:35 51061, It was absolutely perfect. All youtubers who get the same dumb comments repeatedly and decide to reply slightly condescendingly should do it this way. I hope Dzeeff (a Yugioh youtuber) joins in. Jatin Bharati Sun May 4 15:32:46 49558, German does use Du, Ihr, and Sie. HealyHQ Sun May 4 15:32:48 49558, Boom, headshot: https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/conlang-critic/ Jolie Rouge Sun May 4 15:32:51 49558, I guess it's just that people want to like you, and then you go all libtard on them, and it kind of kills the fun. People are just showing their disappointment when they realize that even though you're very intelligent, you're also kind of a mangina. Sexism is a feature, all the successful languages have it. They might be on to something :) Ginger Ale Sun May 4 15:32:54 49558, I think the alveolar flap instead of the trill is because trills are difficult for many people (including myself, I can't produce a trill sound at all) KpTroopaFR Sun May 4 15:32:56 49558, odd how the mic quality decreased since the Klingon episode. Tyron S Sun May 4 15:32:58 49558, The prefix 'mal' is still there, it just isn't used as much and has a different word to avoid confusion with Romance languages Vikram Sundarraman Sun May 4 15:33:00 49558, Thank you for this review that I was looking forward to. I totally agree with your observations on conlangs having an opportunity to handle gender in a reasonable manner from the beginning. I have not studied Esperanto or Ido in sufficient detail, but I am really curious to know if the Ido solution to gender asymmetry in Esperanto is a reasonable one, why is the Esperanto community unwilling to give it even a consideration? I mean if we don't change other aspects of Esperanto but just handle gender the way Ido does, how difficult will it be for users of Esperanto to adopt to that? is there something about the design of Esperanto that makes gender reform almost impossible, or is it just the mindset of its users? Mike S. Sun May 4 15:39:23 49558, I am not an Esperantist (just a curious casual observer of the language) but I believe I know two basic reasons why radical reforms are difficult to implement in Esperanto despite all the pressure: (1) The language has a substantial history of usage and literature which has entrenched the current system, particularly for certain words like "patro" which means father. Think of how hard it would be to make every English speaker re-assign "father" to serve as the basic word for parent, and consider the break this would cause with past English literature. (2) Esperantists are afraid that even if you could force changes like that, it would be dangerous to do so because it would set a precedent for further reforms. Further reforms, in turn, would cause chaos and demoralization and undermine the real goal of the Esperantist movement, which is to get everyone in the world speaking an international language. In summary, Esperanto works well enough, and Esperantists value achieving their idealistic vision over trying to make a perfect language, assuming a perfect language is even possible in the first place. Vikram Sundarraman Sun May 4 15:39:24 49558, This is the argument that I have heard in other forums also, which to me looks okay if Esperanto is promoted only as a hobby language. Then, I don't have any problem with it. However,, the Esperanto community hopes that this language will become the international auxiliary language bringing all of us together. If they are serious about it, they need to do more to address the issue of gender justice. As Yan Misali observes, a conlang has the opportunity to treat gender fairly from the beginning and Esperanto has chosen to ignore it. Ido seems to have fixed it, thought it might have introduced a host of other issues. So, if we were to choose a language for all, I would still prefer Ido over Esperanto because Esperanto is flawed by design, even if it has greater established user base. It is not at all about having a perfect language. It is just about being reasonable in the way gender is handled. Natural languages have issues with gender because they grew out of a culture which took a long time to recognize the need for gender justice. Okay, Esperanto does not have grammatical gender as such like Spanish or French. However, how did they come up with the ridiculous idea of calling mother a female father: something that no natural language I am aware of does and something totally against commonsense (I would think the root word should be like a parent of any gender and male or female gender can be marked when required). Ultimately, I see a hypocrisy in the community in holding on to the version of a language that is less than reasonable and at the same time advocating for its adoption as an international auxiliary language. If established user base and existing literature is a criteria, Basic English is much more suitable than Esperanto for this purpose. Mike S. Sun May 4 15:39:25 49558, I agree with some of what you're saying -- no language on earth that I know of lacks a basic word for mother. Zamenhof was trying to reduce the burden of learning the vocabulary, and like a person who works with a hammer for a living he started to see everything as a nail. However, I have a different interpretation of what this design goof actually amounts to. IMHO the problem is more logic and efficiency than justice. (I don't really wish to rehash the whole topic; I had a really long conversation with "John Paine" over on Misali's "Comment Responses: Esperanto" video if you want to know the gory details of my opinion). Vikram Sundarraman Sun May 4 15:39:27 49558, Okay, we don't need to get into that whole debate again here. However, regarding your hammer analogy I have only one submission to make. If the hammer was really used properly, we should have certainly ended up handling gender more like Toki Pona (which has no grammatical gender markers at all) or Ido (which handles gender symmetrically). Even purely from the point of view of logic and efficiently, gender asymmetry is a very bad idea and I don't see any valid reason, other than a certain sense of fanatic attachment to a particular cultural notion, for retaining in it a language that hopes to become the lingua franca of the world. If you had a hammer, will you hit the nail head on or sideways? I think the design should default to neutral gender, not masculine or feminine speaking purely from the point of view of simplicity of learning and logical and efficient design. Mike S. Sun May 4 15:39:28 49558, I can't understand why people are always floating Toki Pona in auxlang discussions. Toki Pona makes it very difficult to discuss gender stuff at all. Since I get the impression that you want to discuss gender issues, why would you and Jan Misali tout a language like Toki Pona? The whole point of that language is to take your mind off of complex and troubling thoughts. It's not meant to serve as an auxlang. I myself, as a conlanger intending to publish a loglang in the near future, would never implement asymmetrical gender markings, and I would always make gender marking optional (roots epicene by default) including in pronouns. As for why Esperanto will not change: Simply put, Esperantists consider reform-mongering to be the greater evil. Vikram Sundarraman Sun May 4 15:39:29 49558, I understand that the design objectives of Toki Pona and Esperanto/Ido are different. In this context, all I am saying is that if the aim is to use minimum words, the logical, reasonable, and sensible solution will be to default to common gender, not masculine or feminine. It is incidental that Toki Pona does it, but for the record Finnish also does not have gender pronouns and it has never been a practical issue in talking about gender when required. Ido does it as well. Why would Espernato go against such a fundamental principle? In fact for a language that is designed with logic and efficiency in mind to have male gender, and not common gender, as default only shows how extremely biased the design of the language is. Even in everyday conversation, we don't need to always make a person's gender, it is an optional extra information like their skin color, height, nationality, etc. Imagine how complicated a language will be if you had different pronouns based on these parameters? Just because many languages have used grammatical gender does not make is natural, logical, or sensible. Anyway, my primary query in this context is why can't Esperanto accept Ido proposal for fixing gender asymmetry even if they did not accept other modifications? I understand the counterargument is it is not possible because of established usage and my response is that if established usage has reinforced a design flaw, Esperanto is not longer worth consideration for international auxiliary language until the design flaw is fixed by existing users and Esperanto community must stop pretending that their language is more appropriate as global lingua franca than a natural languages because (a) it has a fundamental design flaw of gender asymmetry and (b) established usage means it cannot any longer be easily fixed and the majority of the users have no inclination to fix it either and (c) there is no reason why we should not create a conlong without such fundamental issues and promote it as the international auxiliary language. I have nothing against those who learn and promote Esperanto as a hobby but the moment they say it is the best suitable candidate for international auxiliary language, I want to call them hypocrites unless they are actively doing something to fix issues like gender asymmetry. Vikram Sundarraman Sun May 4 15:39:31 49558, On a positive note, I am happy that you are considering creating a conlang without gender asymmetry and making marking of gender optional. I guess you would also try to use the best features of other conlangs you have reviewed. I will look forward to it being published and perhaps reviewed here. We could further solicit reviews of it from diverse communities, make further modifications it to ensure it is fair to all, and promote it as a suitable candidate for international auxiliary language. If you really do that, I will be very very happy to support your initiative! Riche the Rapper Induction SolutionsTV Sun May 4 15:33:02 49558, You should review the great conlang nynorsk which sucks ass and every Norwegian/bokmål speaker has to learn in school. It's basically like esperanto, but instead of European languages it's mixed with Norwegians accents from the 18-hundreds. Darn you Ivar Aasen Riche the Rapper Induction SolutionsTV Sun May 4 15:38:53 49558, Even though the name directly translates to "new Norwegian" it's the oldest form of Norwegian still in use today. And yes, i do mean that it counts as a conlang as it was made by the god darn Ivar Aasen Eg skulle virkelig ønskja at Han villa døy or whatever Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:54 49558, meh, I don't think controlled dialects are the sort of constructed language that this show is about Riche the Rapper Induction SolutionsTV Sun May 4 15:38:56 49558, Conlang Critic Oh well. It contains a lot to critique with, but I'm not the conlangcritic expert. Thanks for such an.. dare I say entertaining show. Cotote Sun May 4 15:33:05 49558, ahem. Do interlingua Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:33 49558, episode 17 pokemon3335 Sun May 4 15:33:07 49558, can you please do a video on Town Speech(aka. Urban Basanawa) you can find it here http://conworkshop.info/view_language.php?l=UBS Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:11 49558, just updated the Big List Robert Doucet Sun May 4 15:33:09 49558, do dothraki Nicholas Sun May 4 15:33:10 49558, People complaining about how you bringing up gender is "politics"- LMAO, youve been living under a rock for the last 50 years mate! Nukestarmaster Sat Sep 3 15:40:02 50557, More like they've lived through the last five years where nearly everything has been accused of being "sexist". Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:40:03 50557, Nukestarmaster You're the person living under a rock they were talking about. Nukestarmaster Sat Sep 3 15:40:05 50557, +Tentacle Rick Do you have an argument or are you just going to make ad hominem attacks? Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:40:06 50557, Nukestarmaster You got me dude, your argument of "just look at what's been happening recently", is better than my "just look what's been happening in this longer period of time" Nukestarmaster Sat Sep 3 15:40:07 50557, +Tentacle Rick If that was actually the arguments, then yes recent events are generally more relevant to the present day than older events (of course arguing about how relevant certain events are based solely based on when they happened is utterly retarded anyways). But that is not your argument (or the argument of OP), which is merely denigrating those who you disagree with; especially since there's no mention of what this mysterious "what's been happening in this longer period of time" actually is. Also "just look at what's been happening recently" is probably the most reductionist stating of an argument I have seen in my life, so reductionist that it misses the entire argument. Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:40:18 50557, Nukestarmaster What an intellectual powerhouse! Truly unmatched in philosophy and science by any of the greats. Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:40:20 50557, (You are arguing with tentacle Rick, an alternate version of the popular Rick and Morty caracther that is being fucked by a plethora of tentacles in yaoi porn) Nukestarmaster Sat Sep 3 15:40:21 50557, +Tentacle Rick Huh, more ad hominems. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything better. Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:40:23 50557, Nukestarmaster Your argument is that in recent years, things that aren't sexist have been called sexist. This doesn't change the fact that building a language where women are a subcategory of men/where people are assumed to be male unless specified otherwise is sexist. Skeletoaster Sat Sep 3 15:40:24 50557, Tentacle Rick your claim is false. this practice in language construction is not sexist and it harms nobody. IrgendWer Sat Sep 3 15:47:01 50557, LANGUAUGE IS SEXIST LETS BAN LANGUAGE instead of accepting that language evolved that way and we could instead learn to not be sexists ourselves.. geez Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine Sat Sep 3 15:47:03 50557, SomeOne Nobody wants to ban language. We were talking about the fact that "language has evolved that way", and this way actually happens to reflect underlying sexism. Luigicat11 Thu Jun 13 15:47:04 51061, Maybe that's because he's using terms that are irrelevant to the field and mainly used by those who have a political axe to grind (i.e. nonbinary) when there are perfectly good preexisting terms within linguistics that suffice and don't open that politically-charged can of worms (i.e. epicene). S U P E R V 8.0 - クラシックビート Sun May 4 15:33:13 49558, Could you do Elvish? I wouldn't care if you didn't. Thank you? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:39:09 49558, just updated the Big List S U P E R V 8.0 - クラシックビート Sun May 4 15:39:11 49558, Hello, Senpai-kun. William Sun May 4 15:33:16 49558, This channel is fantastic. I found it by searching "conlang". I'd be interested in an episode on Quenya or Sindarin Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:24 49558, just updated the Big List JESH GAMER Sun May 4 15:33:18 49558, Plss tell if u have Angos conlang, which i asked last time in your list Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:39 49558, yes, Angos is on the Big List JESH GAMER Sun May 4 15:38:40 49558, Conlang Critic thanks, happy to get replied in 2 hrs IamAHelpfulPerson Sun May 4 15:33:21 49558, can you do a video about my conlang- Buryish Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:07 49558, is it published somewhere? Jade Dinosaur Sun May 4 15:33:23 49558, Dude, you're awesome! Ooh, do Mandalorian from Star Wars, or Lapine, the bunny language from Watership Down. :) Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:38:45 49558, just updated the Big List Jade Dinosaur Sun May 4 15:38:47 49558, Yay! Also, don't worry about the haters; I really appreciate your knowledge of linguistics, especially since I only got a C in that class. But yeah, even though I'm currently learning French and Indonesian (and to lesser extents Japanese, Gaelic and a bunch of other shit) I would love to learn a conlang, as it sounds fun. Just looking for the right one. Now I'm thinking about creating one for my own writing. Thanks for the insight! :) D. Lawrence Miller Sun May 4 15:33:26 49558, could you review pegakibo? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 15:39:39 49558, just updated the Big List D. Lawrence Miller Sun May 4 15:39:41 49558, Conlang Critic thanks! Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:13 49558, I replied to this video in a new blog post: https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/conlang-critic/ Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 16:05:32 49558, @Akira Enderle Thank you for notifying me. This should do the job: web.archive.org Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 16:05:34 49558, Akira Enderle No problem. If you wish to comment on my reply, feel free to leave a message here in this comment section, for my blog's server seems to be down at the moment. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 16:05:36 49558, I would like to inform you that my blog is working again. Aeon Maujean Sun May 4 15:59:15 49558, That music near the end is very distracting and nearly drowns out your speech. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:16 49558, You said Ido is "still extremely Eurocentric". Why do you criticize Ido for not being what it doesn’t strive to be? To me, it would be like criticizing Ithkuil for not being an auxiliary language. Or Klingon for being too difficult to learn. The Délégation pour l’Adoption d’une Langue Auxiliaire Internationale (Delegation for the Adoption of an International Auxiliary Language) adopted the following declaration in 1907 (translated to English in the Complete Manual of the Auxiliary Language Ido, 1919, p. X): "DECLARATION OF PROGRAMME OF DELEGATION. "1. To select and promote the use of an auxiliary international language destined not to replace the national languages in their everyday use, but to serve as a means of communication between people speaking different languages. "2. In order to fulfil usefully its intended purpose, an international auxiliary language ought to satisfy the following conditions: (a) It must meet the requirements of ordinary social life, and also those of commerce, science, and philosophy. (b) It must be easily acquired by people having an ordinary elementary education, and especially by the people of European civilization. (c) It must not be one of the national languages." Now, your "ranking" of favorite auxiliary languages seems to overlook the fact that international auxiliary languages don’t necessarily have the same goals — and thus the same criteria. Pretty much all of them agree for 1 and 2c; however, Ido is unapologetically Eurocentric with 2b, and could you please explain me how Toki Pona is superior to Ido in regard to 2a? Ido was one of the first auxiliary languages designed with scientific use in mind. You can read more about that in the book Scientific Babel by Michael Gordin (2015). Notably, many scientists complained that the Fundamento forced them to use the very Latin "hidrargo" instead of the international "merkurio". For that reason, even the very early Ido dictionaries (1908) contained words such as "acetileno", "akromata", "akumulatoro", "akustiko", "albumino", "atomo", "chankro", "glikozo" and of course… "merkuryo" (now merkurio). Now, where is Toki Pona’s periodic table? What is "glucose" in Toki Pona? How can you conceive Toki Pona as being a better auxiliary language than Ido if it cannot even compete with the level of versatility that Ido had in 1908? The truth is, Toki Pona was not designed to replace English in scientific literature. Ido was, even from the beginning. Finally, as a side note, Ido’s "Eurocentric" system did not block words with non-European origin from entering the language. The word for Esperanto’s "ĉu" is "ka(d)", which according to the Ido-English Dictionary (Luther H. Dyer, 1924, p. 157) comes from… Sanskrit. Many European words also come from Arabic (e.g. adobo, alkaldo, alkemio, algebro, algoritmo, alkoholo, almanako, amalgamo, ambro, admiralo, arobo, asasino, azimuto, azuro, baldakino, baobabo, bergamoto, kafeo, kalibro, karafo, karato, cheko, divano, shako, jirafo, gitaro, hazardo, hashisho, limono, limonado, magazino, matraco, mumio, moskeo, nenufaro, oranjo, siropo, sukro, zero), Nahuatl (e.g. avokado, axolotlo, chokolado, koyoto, oceloto, tomato), Quechua (e.g. kokao, kokaino, lamao, pumao, quinino, vikuno), Eskimo-Aleut (e.g. anorako, igluo, kayako), Arawakan (e.g. kaimano, kanoo, hamako, iguano, savano, tabako), Tupi-Guaraní (e.g. kayeno, jaguaro, manioko, petunio, tapiokao, tapiro, tukano), Aymara (e.g. alpako), Cariban (e.g. kanibalo), Cherokee (e.g. sequoyo), Taino (e.g. patato), Sanskrit (e.g. Aryana, atolo, kandio, shakalo, junglo, mandarino, pantero, puncho), Hebrew (e.g. abako, amen, Babel, kerubo, edeno, jubileo, manao, mesio, pasko, farizeo, sabato, amonito, makadamo, sodomio), Japanese (e.g. soyo), Turkic (e.g. kazako, kalpak, turkezo, yogurto), etc. The fact Ido is based on European languages does not mean the origin of these words restrict themselves to European borders. All in all, I do not see how an international auxiliary language could be easy to learn, easy to use and easy to understand without being at least a bit Eurocentric in design. Take Chinese for instance. Arbitrarily incorporating more Chinese words into Ido would be pointless, since Chinese itself is mutually unintelligible, it’s strongly tonal (which Ido is not) and it doesn’t use the English alphabet (which Ido uses). An Ido word based solely on (Mandarin) Chinese would probably not even be recognizable to a Chinese person. Ido would thus fare no better than Volapük — which Schleyer deformed especially to make the etymology harder to recognize. In the end, Schleyer’s clever system (that even lacked R to be easy for the Chinese!) rather made Europeans crave Esperanto’s vocabulary and grammar and ended up with… Idiom Neutral and Volapük Nulik. Sameen Dusk Wed Dec 30 16:07:14 51389, yeesh, my dude. what's the tl;dr? Todd Tolson Fri Nov 5 16:07:15 51537, Sameen Dusk That it’s better than Toki Pona because of the ability to express complex or scientific topics, and that it being Eurocentric is fine, since it’s goal was primarily to be a language for European use, but that even while it is very European, it still includes words from languages outside of Europe. Sameen Dusk Fri Nov 5 16:07:16 51537, @Todd Tolson that's a weird opinion to develop, much less defend so vehemently. Todd Tolson Fri Nov 5 16:07:17 51537, Sameen Dusk The science part I understand a bit more, and a language designed for European use should probably be very European, but the vehemence is the odd part. Tibe That Guy Wed Apr 28 16:07:19 51543, Wow. We found Anthony McCarthy's son. Karlos Tjuroukei Sun May 4 15:59:19 49558, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to say about Volapük. It has bizarre vocabulary that provide fewer cognates than Esperanto, the grammar is a bit more complex from what I can see. Though despite that I find Volapük has a somewhat more natural feel than Esperanto say which strikes me as artificial. Volapük is described as being beautiful more often than I see Esperanto being described that way. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:20 49558, OP's OC Sun May 4 15:59:22 49558, Song name pls. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:05:09 49558, all music used in Conlang Critic can be found on my channel AlexRulesVGCP HD Sun May 4 15:59:24 49558, FOR NEXT EPISODE: VOLAPÜK Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:26 49558, For the digraph QU, the early founders of Ido applied the same principle as with X (which I detailed in an earlier comment). According to the Grammaire complète de la Langue Internationale (L. de Beaufront, 1908, p. 7), QU is the combination of two pronunciations: "kw" and "kv". That way, by using QU instead of KW or KV, Ido neutrally relies on etymology — "aquo", for instance, comes from the Latin "aqua" — and leaves the freedom to the speaker to say either "akwo" or "akvo". Same spelling, two possible pronunciations, yet the language stays easy to learn, use and understand. In comparison, Esperanto’s Russocentric pronunciation imposes "akvo", which is far from international and neutral. You said that QU was adopted "so that words from Romance languages can still be spelled the same way". Yet here’s an interesting tidbit: the spelling of "bisquito" (the word for "cookie") can come from no other language but Russian (бискви́т), a Slavic language. Otherwise, we would have "biskuito" not unlike the word "cirkuito". The text above and my previous comments explain why that is the case. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:27 49558, You said, "why drop /ai/ and keep /eu/?" This question is indeed relevant in Ido, since the early Idists took this difficulty in consideration when adopting "nevrologio", "plevro", "anevrismo", etc. Since Ido often bases its pronunciation on Russian (and German), the "v" was preferred to the "u" (plus it is found in French and sometimes even Italian). That is also why we have "volfo" instead of "wolfo" for "wolf". In comparison, Esperanto has "neŭrologio", "pleŭro", "aneŭrismo", etc. That trait, however, was not adopted in words like "eufonio" because of the consonant cluster that "vf" would cause. I would also like to point out that in Ido, the three key practical elements are: easy to learn, easy to use, easy to understand. That is why Ido’s pronunciation is not that strict. You can generally pronounce the letter I as /i/ or /ɪ/ or even /j/, as long as you can be understood. The only thing that matters is that you place the tonic accent correctly. That is why we have words like "boikoto". Meanwhile, Esperanto seems to suggest that there should be a difference between "bojkoti" and "boikoti" when in practice there is none. So much for "one letter, one sound"! Taking that into consideration, I think that someone who is not familiar with the diphthong /eu/ can definitely pronounce the word "feudo" as /fˈeudo/ with or without the "u" as a consonant. With the correct accentuation, the pronunciation is barely different and mutual understanding is fully preserved. Also, we have to take into consideration that words like Europa, Paris, Québec, København, etc., are considered foreign words in Ido, and keep their original spelling (using the extended Latin alphabet, of course) and pronunciation as closely as possible. The use of Latin (in e.g. Japonia, Suedia, etc.) is simply a neutral convention. Louis Francisco Sat Sep 3 16:07:02 50557, No difference between oi and oj ? Do you pronounce in the same way foino and fojno, gaino and gajno. If not, is it only because the accent falls on the i? DieArroganz Sun May 4 15:59:30 49558, Could you please do an episode abour Lingwa de planeta? Source: http://enlidepla.esy.es/ Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:07:32 49558, just updated the Big List DieArroganz Sun May 4 16:07:33 49558, Conlang Critic nice Video by the Way ^^ Logan Stewart Sun May 4 15:59:32 49558, Would you do a video on "John Wilkins language" published in "An Essay towards a Real Character and a Philosophical Language". it is a philosophical language a concept you have not talked about. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:06:56 49558, just updated the Big List Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:34 49558, For the formal (vu) and intimate (tu) distinction, you have to understand that, in order to approach the "greatest easiness to the greatest number of people", Ido adopted the system introduced by Idiom Neutral (a radical reform of Volapuk). In that system, the vocabulary is based on the common denominator of the six most important European languages in the early 20th century: German, English, French, Italian, Russian and Spanish. However, there are two major distinctions between Idiom Neutral’s system and Ido’s improvement. First, Idiom Neutral also included Latin, which Ido got rid of because it is not a living language. Instead, Latin is used only when all of the six languages disagree between each other, and Latin comes as an "a posteriori" neutral ground — an example of that is the replacement of Esperanto's neutral "a priori" correlatives with words based on Latin. Second, not all six source languages are equal, since in order to best follow the principle of "greatest easiness to the greatest number of people", Ido also took the number of native speakers (in Europe) of each language into consideration. That way, it made German much more important than Spanish. Taking that into account, the "tu/vu" dichotomy is found in German (du/Sie), French (tu/vous), Italian (tu/lei), Russian (ty/vy) and Spanish (tú/usted). Thus getting rid of "tu" would be very Anglocentric. The "tu/vu" dichotomy is very cultural, so saying that a pronoun system is better than another without any objective basis is, to me, like saying that one culture is better than another. That is very interculturally inappropriate. The "tu/vu" dichotomy is so important in some French subcultures, for instance, that as a medical student, I can get penalized if I don’t use the right pronoun with people. For instance, using "vous" with a younger person and "tu" with an older person can truly destroy the therapeutic relation with the patient. It could also destroy my interprofessional relations in the future. Outside of French culture, here’s another example: when I suggested to get rid of "vu" in an Ido group on Facebook, I was greeted with verbal violence from a Japanese Idist. You don’t play with that sort of thing. I am one of those who (strongly) think that the problem is not the language but the people who use it. When you exchange with someone from another culture and language, you should not expect a single language to be the perfect "cultural middleman". One must also learn about the other’s culture, and most importantly, be receptive. When meeting an English speaker in Ido, I would tend to use "vu". On the other hand, when I meet a Swede, I would tend to directly use "tu". Finally, with a French speaker I would always start with "vu", then maybe ask after a while if "tu" is preferable. If I meet someone whose customs are unknown to me, I don’t worry: I use "vu", since that is what my own culture is used to, and I expect the other to be accepting and politely correct me if I am wrong. What some see as useless ballast in Ido, I see it as cultural flexibility: the "tu/vu" dichotomy helps Ido be as little a cultural middleman as possible between two (European) nations. In other words, it maximizes direct communication. However, this flexibility must be welcomed without pedantry from both parties. If I were a native English speaker like you, and since you seem uncomfortable with the idea of adapting to the other language’s "tu/vu" custom, I suggest you to always start with "vu" when interacting in Ido, then switch to "tu" if you notice the addressee feels offended or uncomfortable. If you are interested in the topic of cultural adaptation, I suggest you to read about Young Yung Kim's integrative communication theory. Wario Craft Sun May 4 15:59:36 49558, 1st off German is the 11th most spoken language and second off I don't see how removing /eu/ makes Ido's Phonology compatible with German. Unless you mean its closest to German which still seems weird. Its vocabulary in my opinion is even worse although I like that the mal- suffix is gone. I hate the fact that it's even more unbalanced than Esperanto for lexicon Alex Robson Sun May 4 16:04:56 49558, The phonology of Ido minus eu is compatible with German if you count the rhotic as either a flap or a trill, which is realistically acceptable. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:38 49558, You said "the accusative case is indicated through word order (but it can be marked if you want to)". That is a common misconception about Ido. There is a clear rule about that: the accusative case is marked (with -n) only when the direct object comes before the subject. That way, we can equally say "L’arboron me hakas", "L’arboron hakas me", "Hakas l’arboron me", "Me hakas l’arboro", "Me l’arboro hakas" or "Hakas me l’arboro". This is useful when people (e.g. I, who am a French speaker) don’t always use the S-V-O order in their mother tongue. Also, it is useful for sentences built with relative pronouns, for instance "La filmo, quaN me spektas, esas tre populara" (The movie that I watch is very popular). Although the -N is usually not applied to copular verbs, it can be useful in Ido when confusion may arise: "Quon divenas aquo pos varmigo? Vaporo" (What does water become after it is heated? Steam) differs from "Quo divenas aquo pos varmigo? Glacio" (What becomes water after it is heated? Ice). If you want to read lots of criticism about Ido (and Esperanto) and reform proposals of Ido, I invite you to read the magazine Progreso, in publication since 1908, that explains very well (in thousands of pages from diverse authors) how today’s Ido came to be. Ido, like the blueprint of a lightbulb, is not set in stone, and is continuously perfectible. If you are interested in changing anything about Ido, I invite you to learn the language and expose the dramatic flaws of our language in an argumentative essay (written in Ido, of course). That would be much more effective than pointing out details, like in a bulleted list, in an English-language video… Zion J Sat Feb 14 16:05:43 51305, brah how did you get two top comments when the "Read More" button is the detonate button on a word bomb for both? srsly, keep it to 6 lines. If you're writing a second paragraph, something's gone wrong. These are comments after all. Quick comments on the video, not a stinkin' essay. Gilles-Philippe Morin Sun May 4 15:59:40 49558, The reason why X was adopted was to combine the sounds "kz" and "ks" (and the French and Polish "gz", although missing in Esperanto AFAIK) into a single letter that can be freely pronounced in either of the three ways. That way, "ekzameno" and "ksilofono" are spelt "exameno" and "xilofono" in Ido, and can keep the original pronunciation or be pronounced "eksameno" and "kzilofono" or "egzameno" and "gzilofono". It is a simplification, since notably French (sorry for mentioning French, I know some Esperantists are allergic to it but it’s my native tongue) pronounces these Xs like GZ, and apparently English simply pronounces them like Z. It’s also more appropriate in a historical sense, since the word "ekzameno" comes from Latin "exāmen", in which the X is pronounced like KS, not KZ, in Classical Latin. This wide range of possibilities on how to pronounce the letter X shows that Esperanto’s orthography (and thus imposed pronunciation) is very Russocentric — that’s not even Polish in nature, since the word for "ekzameno" in Polish is… "egzamin"! Such a non-international trait is contrary to Ido’s core principle: "The best international language is that which offers the greatest easiness to the greatest number of people." Letting everyone pronounce X in the way they do in their natural language (as long as it doesn’t sound completely different, e.g. like SH) is easier to learn and apply than imposing the pronunciation from a single language. Blackpink-agent Daniel Sun May 4 15:59:42 49558, How about Pegakibo? I've just found that conlang for only a few minutes ago and I already love it! The writing system was very easy! Only 11 letters and I learnt them immediately. I didn't even need to look at the chart! I just looked at the texts written in pegakibo immediately and somehow managed to follow by! :-D Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:06:59 49558, just updated the Big List. Zackary Midddleton Sun May 4 15:59:44 49558, conlang critic you should do furbish Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:05:39 49558, just updated the Big List minibug Sun May 4 15:59:47 49558, Can you add Rikchik (http://www.suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/rikchik.html) to the big list? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:05:18 49558, just updated the Big List Sovairu Sun May 4 16:05:20 49558, Rikchik might be a difficult conlang to discuss in this format. However, I do not know how he plans to do signed languages. Sylvain Auclair Sun May 4 15:59:49 49558, Suggestions of conlangs to be reviewed: sambahsa-mundialect, uropi, lingwa de planeta, lingua franca nova, afrihili (never could find a lot of info on this one). If you read Esperanto, you can read my reviews ( http://www.esperanto.qc.ca/eo/riverego issues 99 and up). Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:07:05 49558, just updated the Big List george aka Angrycheese Sun May 4 15:59:51 49558, By this point it becomes obvious that this guy knows fucking nothing about languages, be it conlangs or natural languages. Without any logic, the "universality" argument is used when referencing the grammar, ignoring the fact that when esperanto was created, most of the countries with "most commonly spoken languages" were barely known (plus, they are not commonly spoken because they are universal, they simply have a large number of people speaking them, meaning creating a conlang that pleases everyone is impossible). But then, when adressing the male-female distinction, he completely ignores the aforementioned universality or that most universally spoken (especially european) languages work like this. Striving to achieve nothing seems to be the primary motivator here, hence why toki pona (aka the baby lang) is his favorite. What a joke. george aka Angrycheese Sun May 4 16:07:25 49558, It reminds me of a feminist parody site joke article that argued that "she" should come before "he", because if "he" comes first, then, clearly, evil men are behind this all. Tarrkin Sun May 4 16:07:27 49558, I'm totally pulling this out of my ass, but I'm pretty sure European people in the late 19th / early 20th century very much knew about those commonly spoken lanaguages like Chinese, Hindi, Arabic, Bengali, Japanese, Punjabi etc. Be it from colonies, war, trade, or christian missions. Some of them, by the way, have very little gender distinction, like Chinese, Bengali, and Japanese. There's absolutely no mistake calling Esperanto and Ido eurocentric auxlangs. Keegster Sun May 4 16:20:43 49558, I don't think that it's a problem that it is Eurocentric. If you include words that are too different, then it would just make it harder for everyone. Also, women as a type of man (grammatically) isn't really a problem, either, I think, because so many European languages do it (yes in a perfectly logical world, perhaps it doesn't make sense). Having women as a type of man in a language is not necessarily sexist. Really, you can interpret that fact however you want. For example, you could say that it is pro-women, because it makes them a distinctive group and so more special, or you could say that it is against women, because it makes them seem like a weird version of human that doesn't coexist properly with the rest of the population. Sovairu Sun May 4 16:28:44 49558, No, that's not true. There are many varieties of conlangs and conlangers, just as it is the case with many other forms of hobbies or art. Not all conlangs need to be exceedingly logical. Sander Suverkropp Sun May 4 16:28:46 49558, Not all conlangs no, but for auxiliary languages, I would say it is reasonable to keep them to this standard. Sovairu Sun May 4 16:28:47 49558, Sovairu Sun May 4 16:28:49 49558, Yes, it is much more understandable to apply the concepts of logic to auxlangs and loglangs, especially. By necessity, I think, Lojban would be the most logical language, although its practical functionality seems abysmal. miguelceromil Sun May 4 16:20:57 49558, reviwe arcaicam esperantom, it's better than esperanto Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:28:37 49558, just updated the Big List Mike S. Sun May 4 16:21:00 49558, I know little about Ido, but I am surprised you didn't mention the v/w distinction. That is something virtually absent in Esperanto. A Duck Sun May 4 16:21:01 49558, I know it would be very difficult, but would it be possible to critique Gestuno? Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:28:01 49558, just updated the Big List. Paulo Victor de Jesus Moraes Sun May 4 16:21:04 49558, Is there even gonna be any language you like more than toki pona? Indecisive Sat Sep 3 16:29:36 50557, Paulo Victor de Jesus Moraes No Burke Tinsley Sat Sep 3 16:29:37 50557, Toki pona is his favorite language! NeptuneF Wed Sep 12 16:29:39 50891, Burke Tinsley even though it's the worst possible language for an interlang Tibe That Guy Wed Sep 12 16:29:41 50891, @NeptuneF Jesus, it's his own damn opinion. NeptuneF Wed Sep 12 16:29:42 50891, @Tibe That Guy lol Paulo Victor de Jesus Moraes Sun May 4 16:21:06 49558, 4:37 doesn´t that happen in a lot of languages? Seiban Sun May 4 16:21:08 49558, Oh yeah, I've got a real appetite! Seiban Sun May 4 16:21:09 49558, Great video! Astro Sun May 4 16:21:11 49558, i can definitely see this becoming a youtube red series Zinouweel Sun May 4 16:28:32 49558, noooo like noooooooooo Astro Sun May 4 16:28:34 49558, i dont mean as in paying, i just see it as having a similar format Griffin Sun May 4 16:21:13 49558, cool and good ra sak Sun May 4 16:21:15 49558, Don't put the music so loud! Please, i almost can't understand your voice rookieagenumber1 Sun May 4 16:21:17 49558, 28th BladderMuffin Sun May 4 16:21:19 49558, "binary gender", >implying there are more than two genders lmao go back to tumblr JCON Sun May 4 16:31:05 49558, BladderMuffin wow you're so cool being all conservative and all. Lmao "read a biology textbook" right? Let's go ahead and ignore literally ALL of the identity psychology advances made in the past century! Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:31:06 49558, I literally link to my tumblr in this video Seiban Sun May 4 16:31:07 49558, Joseph Connell All of those advances were made in the past decade. You could have just said past decade instead of past century. Also: that's a nice strawman you've built! BladderMuffin Could you at least try to see the other perspective instead of blindly ignoring everything he said? He said that there is a pronoun that can be used without stating gender. That's all. He could have just as easily been trying to distinguish from Biological Gender^TM and grammatical gender. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:31:09 49558, I specifically said "binary gender" because of nonbinary people. I was trying to imply that there are more than two genders, like BladderMuffin said. BladderMuffin Sun May 4 16:31:10 49558, ahahaha the regressive left strikes again! throwing around 'conservative' left and right smh.. also lmao 'identity psychology' what's next, people with autism aren't sick they're just different amirite? also shoutout to HBM for banning people with perfectly fine opinions on a fucking conlang server! stop bringing your sjw nonsense into your videos, for God's sake! your videos are alrite but this is just plain stupid. Khuda Hafiz , jazik Allah khair. Seiban Sun May 4 16:31:11 49558, Yeah, I know. It's just best to start with the glaring holes in an argument before going after the specific philosophy. Seiban Sun May 4 16:31:12 49558, BladderMuffin Let me get this straight; you take issue when Conlang Critic brings up his personal ideology in his videos and want him to stop; but when he takes issue with your personal ideology and wants you to stop on the Discord server, it's wrong to censor opinions. BladderMuffin Sun May 4 16:31:14 49558, Seiban 1. yes, because conlanging has absolutely NOTHING to do with this gender identity nonsense. 2. there was a debate in the server and I voiced my opinion. what's wrong with that? needlessnoise Sun May 4 16:31:15 49558, conlanging has nothing to do with gender identity? i mean fuck, even by your own standards that describe other genders as "made up"...so are the fuckin languages so who gives a shit. and on top pof that, languages, especially interlangs, are descriptive not prescriptive. that is to say, if a significant amount of people believe they are nonbinary, whether you agree with the biological basis for it or not, we still need words to describe and refer to these people Seiban Sun May 4 16:31:16 49558, BladderMuffin There was nothing wrong with what you did. I'm just saying that Conlang Critic and you are both hypocrites. Seiban Sun May 4 16:37:41 49558, needlessnoise I can agree with that. Mike S. Sun May 4 16:37:42 49558, I like CC's show, but the fact that he uses ideological jargon, including neologisms, rather than standard linguistic terms in this particular area makes his politics more than obvious. He's entitled to his opinion of course, and maybe he likes the controversy he gets from that; I don't know. Anyway, the less loaded term in linguistics for a form that leaves gender unspecified is "epicene". No one refers to "binary gender" when discussing language, it's simply "gender" Also, linguistic forms like pronouns and suffixes don't -- dear God -- "assign a gender" to an entity. They refer to an entity by means of gender, which in natlangs may or may not match the natural gender of the thing -- see Spanish, German, etc. as examples. Gender is just a tool for language speakers to refer to things and build in redundancy (e.g. noun-adj concord) into the speech stream. Of course, in a logical language, I totally agree with CC that the unmarked form should be epicene, and the genders should be treated symmetrically. But, Jiminy Cricket, no one except primarily for monoglot English speakers with a certain political axe to grind would regard grammatical gender as a big ideological issue. The issue is logic and efficiency! Seiban Sun May 4 16:37:44 49558, I have a question. Is any of this discussion actually affecting opinion here, or is it just bullshitting for bullshit's Japanese alcoholic beverage? Mike S. Sun May 4 16:37:45 49558, The discussion may well be changing opinions among neutral observers, if not among the active participants. Seiban Sun May 4 16:37:46 49558, That is a good point. Alex Hayes Sun May 4 16:37:47 49558, Are you so insecure with your political opinions that you must point it out every time that CC criticizes the language from a perspective that you do not agree with? Go back to 4chan. BladderMuffin Sun May 4 16:37:49 49558, Alex Hayes yeah, and the 'perspective' from which he criticizes conlangs is complete bullshit and irrelevant. also, nice try, but I'm not a 4channer ;) Alex Hayes Sun May 4 16:37:50 49558, Yeah, because a grammatical gender system is completely unrelated to gender, and of course all the lefties have bullshit perspectives, our opinions are completely wrong. Look, I don't care that you think that some of my friends don't exist, that's fine, political opinion is a thing, but can't you give the other viewers the same courtesy? You aren't the only person in the universe with beliefs, you're going to disagree with people. Also, was my assumption that you are from 4chan any worse than you assuming that anybody who accepts non-binary gender is automatically from Tumblr? Granted, he has a link to his Tumblr in the description, but it's not an inherently left-wing blog; it's just for conlanging. P.S. People with autism aren't sick, they really are just neurologically different. Why are you parodying yourself? DingoSaar Sat Sep 3 16:37:51 50557, "Binary" means ðere is no "two", ðere is only 0 or 1. DingoSaar Sat Sep 3 16:37:53 50557, "Binary" means ðere is no "two", ðere is only "1" ϗ "0". BTW... ðere is no spoon, eiðer. DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 16:37:54 50557, Conlang Critic although you gotta admit, (at least I think) people weren't non binary. It wasn't a thing when Esperanto was made so its less of an improvement and more of an add on to suit the times Indecisive Sat Sep 3 16:37:55 50557, BladderMuffin Yeah, because more than teo genders has NEVER developed outside of Tumblr. I bet there are NO cultures with 3, 4 or even 5 genders! Ridiculous right? And why would someone ever want to speak without identifying their gender? Obviously language must show it you're a guy or girl or the very fabric of reality will unravel! Nash Feiler Sat Sep 3 16:37:57 50557, Almost all educated scientists confirm gender is on a spectrum. Mind your own business and go back to whining about your bad quesadilla on Yelp. Josiah Nethery Sat Sep 3 16:37:58 50557, M. Feiler everything is on a spectrum. It's still natural and simple to define things based on the poles and center of said spectrum. We can then modify these words for specificity. Adding 100 different words for levels of light instead of "light" and "dark" or 1000 different words for the shades of gray between black and white is useless and overly specific. Placement on a spectrum between masculine and feminine isn't quantifiable. It is sufficient to say "he", "she", "them" and "it". "Non-binary" as an identity is incredibly non-specific, not useful, and it opens a giant can of politically loaded words, as often there's no clear definition on what people mean when they say that they are "non-binary". Ultimately, it boils down to the PHILOSOPHY that females and males are the same, and that no tangible distinction can or should be made between the two. Passing this off as "science" isn't accurate.  The negative reaction to it stems from the commonly-held fear that people's speech is going to be dictated based off of fringe philosophy. If a biological woman demands to be called a man, it creates uncomfortable and confusing ambiguity in what has been considered a simple concept for thousands of years. It is demanding that people abandon their culture, understanding, and language to appease the philosophy of a small percentage of people.  So, sorry, I know you mean well here, but you can't radically change language and expect everyone to adopt it overnight. You can call it "science" until you're blue in the face (it's philosophy), but 99.9% of the world understands men and women to be 2 separate things. On a spectrum, sure, but the binary classification is reflective of humanity's understanding of reality. As long as we remain creatures that reproduce, we will continue to recognize the distinction between male and female. And our language will reflect that understanding. DeluxeTux5249 Sat Sep 3 16:37:59 50557, Josiah Nethery wow... You're the most mature/smart man/woman I've seen in these comments... Well said. Well said. Skeletoaster Sat Sep 3 16:38:01 50557, M. Feiler they would be crucified by an angry mob if they dared to speak against the social justice groupthink of academia. ThatZommy Sun May 4 16:21:22 49558, Nice EDIT: I'm curious, what words should one start with once they reach the vocabulary stage of conlanging? I'm trying to create a language for my novel, but I'm running into issues finding a good list of words to begin with that would allow for basic everyday speech. Y'know what I mean? Eita Tsukino Sun May 4 16:28:56 49558, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadesh_list#Final_Swadesh_list the swadesh list is good for some real basics http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2590 and this thread has a nice list to get started After that, I'd recommend just doing some translations of things so you can get a feel for what you're still missing. ObeyBunny Sun May 4 16:28:57 49558, It depends. The people who speak your language, how did their culture evolve and what does their environment look like? ThatZommy Sun May 4 16:28:58 49558, I've got the swadesh down, I'll check the other list out too. Thanks guys. Insert Channel Name Sun May 4 16:21:24 49558, 2:16 I get why you didn't say English has a 'ts', but it is in words like iTSy biTSy spider. It's not that common and some people have a problem pronouncing it, I just wanted to say that. Marsh Sun May 4 16:30:34 49558, Pegaliko the sequence /t/ + /s/ is allowed in some positions in English but there is no affirmative phoneme /ts/. Is there a difference? Kinda. Marsh Sun May 4 16:30:36 49558, Pegaliko *affricative Sgàire Sun May 4 16:30:37 49558, You can't start a word with /ts/ in English, while I'm guessing you can in Ido which is why he's trying to say. Sage Sweeney Sun May 4 16:30:39 49558, Tsunami? Marsh Sun May 4 16:30:40 49558, Pegaliko loanword from Japanese, which does have a /ts/ phoneme. The pronunciation in English is approximated with /s/ Keegster Sun May 4 16:30:41 49558, Insert Channel Name Sun May 4 16:30:42 49558, Marsh Thanks I wasn't fully clear on the difference between them being an affricate and being in the same position. Ashtăr Balynestjăr Sun May 4 16:30:43 49558, In fact, Polish distinguishes between affricates and stop-fricative sequences: czysta /t͡ʃɨsta/ "clean (feminine)" vs. trzysta /t.ʃɨsta/ "three hundred". Strike Ecozzocn Sat Sep 3 16:30:45 50557, We don’t distinguish /ts/ and /t͡s/ but in words like dates, it can be pronounced /dɛɪt͡s/ or /dɛɪts/ Soviet Loli Thu Jun 13 16:30:46 51061, @Ashtăr Balynestjăr How? Ashtăr Balynestjăr Thu Jun 13 16:36:11 51061, @Soviet Loli We don’t have any single-word examples in English, but it does occur across multiple words. Think about the difference between “courtship” and “core chip”, or “ratchet“ and “rat shit”. Yevhenia Doskach Thu Feb 10 16:36:12 51138, @Marsh In BE it is pronounced /tsuːˈnɑː.mi/. So I guess, you're speaking on behalf of AE. Jollonk Sun May 4 16:21:26 49558, The reason natural languages (at least those of Indo-European descend) have the masculine as the standard has nothing to do with sexism. The masculine used to be just an animate, and later on a suffix could be added to these words to make them feminine. This created a distinction between general animate and feminine animate. This shifted to a difference between masculine and feminine, with some archaic uses of the masculine as just an animate (general he in English, for example). So, it’s an archaism of the animate function of the masculine, not a view as women as a kind of man. As for origin of that suffix, of which the form was -h2, it might have been a collective. I don’t know why such a semantic shift would have taken place, or what this means for how they saw women back then, but it might not have been derogatory. I don’t know if this is possible with a collective, but with a plural it is possible to mark respect in some languages, like vous in French. If the same is possible for a collective, it might have been somewhat similar, though, how exactly, I don’t know. Just claiming sexism feels like a bit of a cop-out to me. Also, I think people might just be tired of hearing about sexism everywhere they go, so they don't appreciate it when it pops up again, unexpectedly. But, it is your show, so you may include it if you want, of course. Just be aware some might not like it. Mike S. Sun May 4 16:29:59 49558, Jollonk, I agree with your points. As far as -h2, my own hypothesis is that the two uses (fem. sing. & neut. collective) originated from two originally separate suffixes that fell together due to phonological attrition (Like the separate origins of English -s plural, -'s possessive, -s 3p sing verb endings). I can't think of good way that -h2 could have developed two rather distinct meanings otherwise. The Major Sun May 4 16:30:00 49558, Actually many of them did have 3 grammatical genders; Neuter, Masculine and Feminine. Masculine Neuter merged, and the rest is history. There are a few remnants of this in some of the European languages. It's not that the masculine is standard it's dropped, and neuter is the one used, and then a female modifier. Man for instance just mean human being, it's grammatically neuter because it never was anything else, woman has the wo prefix, which probably was another root word in the past meaning woman. Just like -inna in Swedish turns a neuter into feminine, it's root is kvinna, meaning adult female. There is a second suffix which does the same thing -(er)ska which I don't know the root word of, it's technically a stemchanging suffix. Seeing as the neuter is -are compared to the old -ir for masculine. DingoSaar Sat Sep 3 16:30:01 50557, +The Major you make very good points, however, we in German have a neuter, and addressing adult people in it feels just WRONG - you don't want a Neutrum, but an Utrum (I had to learn the word, too). Ne--utrum means "none of both" in latin, it seems - Utrum "any of both". Many Esperantists also feel uncomfortable using "ĝi" as utric pronoun; in 1967, Manuel Halvelik just dropped the ĉapitelo: gi (or Arxaika Esperanto: "egui"). Please: This does NOT the hell mean a ĉapitelo diminished respect for a word (as feminine pronoun is "ŝi"); it's just that ne-uter is ĝi and utric is gi. Therefore, female suffix is "-in-" and male "-iĉ-", with ĉapitelo. While German took between middle xy GErman and modern xy German a word for "human" ("Mensch/Minsch) that differed from "male" (Mann), there are still many idioms where "Mann" includes ladies ("am Mann haben", "bemannen", "Mannschaft"...). English (and East German, too) just used the "generic masculine" as Utrum: "the minister of education, Mrs Margot Honnecker". Now the "fun fact": since the 1990s, all official communication has to be "inclusive": "Dear Frauinnen und Frauen, Mitgliederinnen und Mitglieder, Studierendinnen und Studierende". SINCE THEN, women in mathematics/informatics/natural sciences/technics FELL - "being inclusive" meant, here, that people STARTED to think about gender and MADE MINT "male" and pedagogics/social sciences/philosophy "female", while the USA with their "generic masculine" have about 50% of female MINT bachelors. It gets even worse considering the majority of female MINT professionals/students is from Eastern Germany where "Gendering" still hasn't established itself. The ONLY way to "de-gender" professions (and thereby make females take them up) seems to be radical utric use; if you don't have an utrum, radically avoiding feminine movation and only speak in generalised masculine - so masculine Genus (grammatical) loses its meaning "male Sexus" (again). Also to take into consideration, here +Bon Bon might be able to add something: In Slavonic languages, female endings are even in Names - Michail Gorbatschow and Raissa Gorbatschowa. Slavonic women can sweep the floor with West-German ones. In Eatern Europe (including CIS and East Germany), the economy needed the female work force, so participation in the Workforce seems to be WAY stronger than language in "making females equal"; however, I still hold NOT using an Utrum makes those whose gender is not seen as "typical" in a profession (male kindergardners, eg) "unnormal". sofias. orange Sat Sep 3 16:30:03 50557, > nothing to do with sexism > a suffix could be added to these words to make them feminine also sexism does not depend on whether it's always been that way or has changed. what matters is the social mechanisms it enables or enforces in the moment that it is used. DingoSaar Sat Sep 3 16:30:04 50557, +sofias. orange and, pray tell, what ARE ðose "mechanisms", empirically (statistically) proven by evidence? In medieval Europe, ðere was nobility ϗ agriculture, boþ seeing common males ϗ lifestock males as workforce, females as "breeding stock" to be treasured - it is anecdotal, but still ðere: In Chinese characters, "female" is a distinct sign, "male" is combined by "Force" in ðe "Field". For "real" patriarchy, commoners ϗ non-citizens were but a numberto till fields, build structures, wage wars or - Russian Empire 19þ century - gamble away. And yes, ðis is problematic even today: It is called ðe "disposable dude"-meme in ðat "women and children" are to be protected, males are replacable and disposable - see, eg, how few women even today serve in armed forces or police, even hiȝ-risk work environments - which society tends to fill wiþ disposable males. Also, custody strifes are even today heavily biased against faðers (faðer/moðer anoðer example for non-movated male/female roles). Yesterday, ðere was ðe "day against violence against women" because one in þree has an experience wiþ violence - which is tragic, however, one in TWO males experience violence, but ðis is deemed "normal" (even TRY to organise a gender-less "day against violence" - nice to have got to read you). In Indo-Germanic languages, you see movated "affixed" female forms (priestess, engineeress...), but also (un-movated) "genuine female" terms (nurse, queen... German "Zofe", "Amme" (midwive (Hebamme), nursing maid). Where you find ðose terms, male and female terms are totally distinct (monk/nun). Esperanto detractors even find it obscene "genuine female" words in Esperanto can be used for males, too (fraulo/frauliĉo: bachelor, from German "Fräulein"; damo/damiĉo "noble" "esteemed sir" from French dame, male sieur). For ðis reason, Ludwig Samenhof coming from a Yiddish/Polish/German/Russian/French background used a female affix, because all ðose languages HAVE one. De Beaufront took a male affix, too, for symmetry purposes. Neiðer Samenhof nor de Beaufront had "sexist" motivations; and see, eg, English who has made ðe "generalised masculine genus" an "utrum" (gender-less), ðe F.R.Germany who puts female "-in" in EVERYÞING (Mitglied/Mitgliederin, Studierender/Studierende), and France and Slavonic countries who just add some "-e" or "-a" here and ðere and have many "generalised/utric masculine genera" oðerwise, and only ðe fanatic Dworkinists want to change it; stated reason in all ÞREE cases: "feminism". Now, we have a historic precedence here: ðe FRG used movation (which is criticised as "autrui" in French, "oðering" in English), ðe GDR generalised masculine like English (FRG: Mrs engineeress Müller; GDR: Mrs engineer Müller). Statistics show clearly ðat in ðe Western FRG, women in STEM become rarer and rarer while males in Humanity sciences leave ðe field, also. Former GDR even today, and English-speaking countries have much hiȝer "female STEM/male Humanity sciences" rates. So TODAY, we can say ðat Giismo (gi, li, ŝi, ĝi for utric he or she, he, she, it) and Iĉismo are correct because of ðe data we have 1950-1990 and 1990-now in boþ Germanies; Esperanto and Ido were made 1860 and 1910. Sexism is involved if someþing is used or made in a sexist motivation. Historically, ðere were "castes" "common (disposable male) human" ("man"), "common female human" ("woman", yes, ENGLISH: wo-man), "noble male human" ("lord") and "noble female human" ("lady"); sexism and "patriarchy" here are not "males vs females", but 1% of males vs ðe rest of society; and ENGLAND even disposed of a king qwho did not fulfill his gender-role by pouring molten lead into his rectum - ðe "King" being ðe top-most "patriarch" in a patriarchal society. "Reverse sexism" is as bull-crappy as "capitalism is ðe exploitation of one human by ðe oðer, socialism is ðe reverse ðereof". Find a worðy bullying-field to battle "sexism"; it may be easy to "strike down" on ðe Esperanto and Ido communities, but REAL society-changing sexism to fiȝt is to be found elsewhere. But ðat's no longer striking down, but an uphill battle. Nukestarmaster Sat Sep 3 16:30:06 50557, +DingoSaar Good points all around, but you are kind of hard to read. What do you have against "th"? Epic Stimulus Sat Sep 3 16:30:07 50557, Not Greek though Skeletoaster Sat Sep 3 16:30:08 50557, Nukestarmaster he's probably typing on an icelandic keyboard or has some custom preset for a personal conlang. either that or he's trying to lead the change of english spelling by using the IPA to write in english. Heads Full Of Eyeballs Sat Sep 3 16:30:09 50557, "I don’t know why such a semantic shift would have taken place, or what this means for how they saw women back then, but it might not have been derogatory." The way I've generally seen it explained is that Indo-European women were viewed collectively, as either a group of women or part of the family-group. We have a bunch of examples of that sort of semantic shift from later IE languages. The Romanian word for "woman", femeie, derives from Latin familia "family, household", for example. The German word "Frauenzimmer" (lit. "women's room") is now a derogatory term for a woman, singular. In many IE cultures you didn't address women by name, either -- in ancient Greek we generally see men addressed by name, while women just get "o gune!", "o woman!". And Roman women were typically just referred to by their husband's gentile name. All this is definitely reflective of a sexist ancestral culture, where men are individuated but women are generic and interchangeable/defined by their attachment to a man. It's not "derogatory" in the sense that it actively seeks to insult women, it just reflects a view of women that's morally insulting. Carl Avlund Sun May 4 16:21:29 49558, Great episode! I couldn't agree more with you regarding the flaws of Esperanto and Ido's phonemes. I did sort of like Esperanto's orthography better. I mean, I think it's absolutely idiotic to use ‹ĥ› for /x/ and ‹ŭ› for /w/, but I think it's better to make a diacritical system than to use digraphs. Whenever I see a conlang use ‹sh› for /ʃ/, I cringe in agony... In fact, if Esperanto would've just used *‹ẑ› instead of ‹ĵ› for /ʒ/, I would've been absolutely fine with it. Oh, and then Zamenhoff should've turned those f*cking circumflexes upside down!!! Seriously, ‹ˆ› is so f*cking ugly, like, why would he do that... Anyway, awesome vid'! 109Rage Sun May 4 16:21:30 49558, If you wanna put music in the video, turn the music down, or turn your voice track up. ads13000 Sun May 4 16:21:32 49558, Just a question: What does it take for a conlang to be reviewed by you? Does it have to be sufficiently known? Does it just have to be reasonable? etc. Martin Claaassen Sun May 4 16:28:23 49558, ads13000 he needs to be able to see the conlang and I guess it needs to be fleshed out 109Rage Sun May 4 16:28:25 49558, On top of it needing to be available for him to research somewhere (preferably somewhere on the internet), viewers request the conlang they want reviewed, and he adds it to a list. The order in which he reviews them is based on how many people request the video, and how many items he already had on the list. Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:28:26 49558, aw dang I was gonna answer this question but Da best Rock and 109Rage beat me to it Hand Sanitizer Attack Sun May 4 16:21:34 49558, The music near the end was way too loud. Also, I love this series, but I find it hard to focus on your voice when you talk that fast and have a pretty bad mic. 109Rage Sun May 4 16:29:25 49558, Lucky for us, he has subtitles you can turn on. Toimu13 Sat Sep 3 16:29:27 50557, I prefer the older episodes without music. Please turn the music down or off. Thank you. Jordan Getulio Sun May 4 16:45:09 49558, The music was a bit loud near the end, I could barely hear what you were saying, but otherwise a good review, keep up the good work! Ptaku93 Sat Sep 3 16:50:30 50557, Jordan Getulio oh boy this comment sounds like I would comment one year ago how weird Anteri Savukoski Sat Feb 14 16:50:32 51305, @Ptaku93 and this comment is something i would comment 1 year ago as well... Keith Pickett Sun May 4 16:45:11 49558, why is it only in 360p ? Thom Hopgood Sun May 4 16:45:13 49558, Notification squad! Some Girl Sun May 4 16:45:15 49558, Even though I don't always agree with your opinions, I love your content and respect your obvious linguistics experience (be it formal or informal) and effort in making these videos! :) Conlang Critic Sun May 4 16:50:56 49558, thanks Bill! jcbk ninety Sun May 4 16:45:17 49558, I guest V0tgil is on the bottom forever. Alexander Ferguson Sun May 4 16:50:47 49558, jcbk ninety until a worse auxlang comes along. jcbk ninety Sun May 4 16:50:48 49558, Yeah! Chase B Sun May 4 16:50:49 49558, Until material is available on Megdevi, David Peterson's personal language from before he knew anything about linguistics jcbk ninety Sun May 4 16:50:51 49558, Ooh. Epic Stimulus Sat Sep 3 16:50:52 50557, Lol Will Tannery Sun May 4 16:45:20 49558, Whoah I'm early Celt of Canaan Esurix Sun May 4 16:45:22 49558, Might want to turn the music a tad bit down, I had difficulty hearing. Also first comment! Keegster Sun May 4 16:50:13 49558, You may have been the first comment, but I can't tell for sure because you edited the comment, making it go further up in the comment stream. The Ancient World Sun May 4 16:45:24 49558, owo what's this? Nic Austin Sun May 4 16:45:26 49558, Hey hbmaster it's me jan meka